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While not all information is correct, I don't see Ukrainians overstating that they are facing existencial risk. The country is being attacked, million people ar

by NoPie 5y ago

While not all information is correct, I don't see Ukrainians overstating that they are facing existencial risk. The country is being attacked, million people are refugees now, thousands dead, probably even more injured, maimed, civilians are being killed, their houses destroyed. The nuclear power plant was attacked, what is incorrect about that? It is clear that Russia has started to war to deprive Ukraine to their independence. There is no doubt about that.

strogonoff 5y ago
I wish I had never been in a position to weigh the two but deprivation of independence and selective political persecution, however bad, does not go as low as genocide. Genocide indeed targets the entire demographic and is insidious in part because it may be misleadingly quiet and peaceful (see the ongoing sterilization of Uyghur women). That said, one can consider deprivation of independence as adjacent to cultural genocide.
- NoPie 5y ago
  Genocide is just a term and where you draw a line is subjective. Ukraine suffered Golodomor and if they lose this war there will be Golodomor 2. It is not about culture but real lives lost. In tens of thousands, maybe even millions.
  - strogonoff 5y ago
    Terms have definitions, otherwise communication is noise. To directly quote a friend living near Kherson: “they are shooting when military is attacked”. She is on the ground (private house) and feels safe, but strongly worried about residents of apartment buildings that get damaged in fire. Do with that anecdata what you will. If the war persists in the cities, such death toll is certainly a horrible possibility. It is hopeful that humanitarian corridors seem to be opening up. Though not to Kyiv, where I have a teammate. He just keeps working as normal… Feels like he is trying to escape reality.
    - NoPie 5y ago
      Therefore it is imperative that Ukraine wins this war as soon as possible to avoid and minimize deaths.
      - strogonoff 5y ago
        That’s the ideal scenario. Sad that governments of bystander countries do not seem to want to help make that happen.
        brabel 5y ago
        Hey, they do want to help!! But they can't! Entering open conflict with Russia is the worst possible thing that could happen to Europe, even worse than letting Russia win this war, unfortunately for Ukrainians. Why? Because we're talking about nuclear war here... Russia's threats are not just buffling! Most people they were buffling with invading Ukraine... now we know they are dead serious about this and we absolutely should not take our chances. To those who think this is just a first step: it's not. It really is not. All other European states that could possibly be invaded or even just harassed by Russia are already part of NATO except maybe for Finland (which while not being a NATO member, has very close relationship with NATO and is likely to be defended by NATO even if they don't become members in the next few months) and Moldova. So anything Russia does in Europe after this war is over will very likely cause NATO to react militarily (which it made clear it wouldn't do in Ukraine before the war started) probably before Russia even has a chance to move, so the story will be very different.
        strogonoff 5y ago
        What I see here is people (not you, but those I respond to) saying two things: (A) Ukraine must win and (B) Europe won’t help. I love Ukraine and I want it to exist as an independent democratic country, yet I can’t help but think whoever says both (A) and (B) has probably evacuated all friends and family (if they were ever in Ukraine) and has no regard for the rest. Meanwhile, I have people there, and if we go the A + B route it is likely to drag on for weeks meaning I may lose them—not to genocide or mass murder, which from what I personally know so far strikes me as blatantly made-up propaganda, but to stray ordnance (I pray bombings don’t commence) and most importantly food shortages about to turn into literal hunger. To those people I say: if you can make (A) happen, make it happen; otherwise do everyone a favor, stop armchair-urging people to die and focus on diplomacy.

by NoPie 5y ago

strogonoff 5y ago

I wish I had never been in a position to weigh the two but deprivation of independence and selective political persecution, however bad, does not go as low as genocide. Genocide indeed targets the entire demographic and is insidious in part because it may be misleadingly quiet and peaceful (see the ongoing sterilization of Uyghur women). That said, one can consider deprivation of independence as adjacent to cultural genocide.

NoPie 5y ago
Genocide is just a term and where you draw a line is subjective. Ukraine suffered Golodomor and if they lose this war there will be Golodomor 2. It is not about culture but real lives lost. In tens of thousands, maybe even millions.
- strogonoff 5y ago
  Terms have definitions, otherwise communication is noise. To directly quote a friend living near Kherson: “they are shooting when military is attacked”. She is on the ground (private house) and feels safe, but strongly worried about residents of apartment buildings that get damaged in fire. Do with that anecdata what you will. If the war persists in the cities, such death toll is certainly a horrible possibility. It is hopeful that humanitarian corridors seem to be opening up. Though not to Kyiv, where I have a teammate. He just keeps working as normal… Feels like he is trying to escape reality.
  - NoPie 5y ago
    Therefore it is imperative that Ukraine wins this war as soon as possible to avoid and minimize deaths.
    - strogonoff 5y ago
      That’s the ideal scenario. Sad that governments of bystander countries do not seem to want to help make that happen.
      - brabel 5y ago
        Hey, they do want to help!! But they can't! Entering open conflict with Russia is the worst possible thing that could happen to Europe, even worse than letting Russia win this war, unfortunately for Ukrainians. Why? Because we're talking about nuclear war here... Russia's threats are not just buffling! Most people they were buffling with invading Ukraine... now we know they are dead serious about this and we absolutely should not take our chances. To those who think this is just a first step: it's not. It really is not. All other European states that could possibly be invaded or even just harassed by Russia are already part of NATO except maybe for Finland (which while not being a NATO member, has very close relationship with NATO and is likely to be defended by NATO even if they don't become members in the next few months) and Moldova. So anything Russia does in Europe after this war is over will very likely cause NATO to react militarily (which it made clear it wouldn't do in Ukraine before the war started) probably before Russia even has a chance to move, so the story will be very different.
        strogonoff 5y ago
        What I see here is people (not you, but those I respond to) saying two things: (A) Ukraine must win and (B) Europe won’t help. I love Ukraine and I want it to exist as an independent democratic country, yet I can’t help but think whoever says both (A) and (B) has probably evacuated all friends and family (if they were ever in Ukraine) and has no regard for the rest. Meanwhile, I have people there, and if we go the A + B route it is likely to drag on for weeks meaning I may lose them—not to genocide or mass murder, which from what I personally know so far strikes me as blatantly made-up propaganda, but to stray ordnance (I pray bombings don’t commence) and most importantly food shortages about to turn into literal hunger. To those people I say: if you can make (A) happen, make it happen; otherwise do everyone a favor, stop armchair-urging people to die and focus on diplomacy.