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The Ukrainians are understandably overstating their case. They are trying to make NATO join the conflict by making us even more scared of what's going on (see t

by brabel 5y ago

The Ukrainians are understandably overstating their case. They are trying to make NATO join the conflict by making us even more scared of what's going on (see the overblown reports about atomic power plant attacks, unfounded claims that Ukraine is only a first step in some grander attack against the West etc). Be very careful in what you believe. If the Russians wanted genocide (which I find, honestly, about as nonsense as Russians saying Ukraine has a Nazi governement), they wouldn't need to send troops in, right? They could just have bombed their cities indiscriminately from a safe distance. The Russian attacks are happening in the cities, it's true, but where do you think the Ukrainian military is?? Why didn't they fight the Russians outside the cities to avoid that? Have you heard of "protracted war"?

peppermint_tea 5y ago
I think you are spot on, just to add to this, I understand why the Ukrainian military does not want to fight outside the cities, It would make them open target for Russian shelling. and the imbalance in forces would probably become more obvious.
NoPie 5y ago
While not all information is correct, I don't see Ukrainians overstating that they are facing existencial risk. The country is being attacked, million people are refugees now, thousands dead, probably even more injured, maimed, civilians are being killed, their houses destroyed. The nuclear power plant was attacked, what is incorrect about that? It is clear that Russia has started to war to deprive Ukraine to their independence. There is no doubt about that.
- strogonoff 5y ago
  I wish I had never been in a position to weigh the two but deprivation of independence and selective political persecution, however bad, does not go as low as genocide. Genocide indeed targets the entire demographic and is insidious in part because it may be misleadingly quiet and peaceful (see the ongoing sterilization of Uyghur women). That said, one can consider deprivation of independence as adjacent to cultural genocide.
  - NoPie 5y ago
    Genocide is just a term and where you draw a line is subjective. Ukraine suffered Golodomor and if they lose this war there will be Golodomor 2. It is not about culture but real lives lost. In tens of thousands, maybe even millions.
    - strogonoff 5y ago
      Terms have definitions, otherwise communication is noise. To directly quote a friend living near Kherson: “they are shooting when military is attacked”. She is on the ground (private house) and feels safe, but strongly worried about residents of apartment buildings that get damaged in fire. Do with that anecdata what you will. If the war persists in the cities, such death toll is certainly a horrible possibility. It is hopeful that humanitarian corridors seem to be opening up. Though not to Kyiv, where I have a teammate. He just keeps working as normal… Feels like he is trying to escape reality.
      - NoPie 5y ago
        Therefore it is imperative that Ukraine wins this war as soon as possible to avoid and minimize deaths.
        strogonoff 5y ago
        That’s the ideal scenario. Sad that governments of bystander countries do not seem to want to help make that happen.
        brabel 5y ago
        Hey, they do want to help!! But they can't! Entering open conflict with Russia is the worst possible thing that could happen to Europe, even worse than letting Russia win this war, unfortunately for Ukrainians. Why? Because we're talking about nuclear war here... Russia's threats are not just buffling! Most people they were buffling with invading Ukraine... now we know they are dead serious about this and we absolutely should not take our chances. To those who think this is just a first step: it's not. It really is not. All other European states that could possibly be invaded or even just harassed by Russia are already part of NATO except maybe for Finland (which while not being a NATO member, has very close relationship with NATO and is likely to be defended by NATO even if they don't become members in the next few months) and Moldova. So anything Russia does in Europe after this war is over will very likely cause NATO to react militarily (which it made clear it wouldn't do in Ukraine before the war started) probably before Russia even has a chance to move, so the story will be very different.

by brabel 5y ago

peppermint_tea 5y ago

I think you are spot on, just to add to this, I understand why the Ukrainian military does not want to fight outside the cities, It would make them open target for Russian shelling. and the imbalance in forces would probably become more obvious.

NoPie 5y ago

While not all information is correct, I don't see Ukrainians overstating that they are facing existencial risk. The country is being attacked, million people are refugees now, thousands dead, probably even more injured, maimed, civilians are being killed, their houses destroyed. The nuclear power plant was attacked, what is incorrect about that? It is clear that Russia has started to war to deprive Ukraine to their independence. There is no doubt about that.

strogonoff 5y ago
I wish I had never been in a position to weigh the two but deprivation of independence and selective political persecution, however bad, does not go as low as genocide. Genocide indeed targets the entire demographic and is insidious in part because it may be misleadingly quiet and peaceful (see the ongoing sterilization of Uyghur women). That said, one can consider deprivation of independence as adjacent to cultural genocide.
- NoPie 5y ago
  Genocide is just a term and where you draw a line is subjective. Ukraine suffered Golodomor and if they lose this war there will be Golodomor 2. It is not about culture but real lives lost. In tens of thousands, maybe even millions.
  - strogonoff 5y ago
    Terms have definitions, otherwise communication is noise. To directly quote a friend living near Kherson: “they are shooting when military is attacked”. She is on the ground (private house) and feels safe, but strongly worried about residents of apartment buildings that get damaged in fire. Do with that anecdata what you will. If the war persists in the cities, such death toll is certainly a horrible possibility. It is hopeful that humanitarian corridors seem to be opening up. Though not to Kyiv, where I have a teammate. He just keeps working as normal… Feels like he is trying to escape reality.
    - NoPie 5y ago
      Therefore it is imperative that Ukraine wins this war as soon as possible to avoid and minimize deaths.
      - strogonoff 5y ago
        That’s the ideal scenario. Sad that governments of bystander countries do not seem to want to help make that happen.
        brabel 5y ago
        Hey, they do want to help!! But they can't! Entering open conflict with Russia is the worst possible thing that could happen to Europe, even worse than letting Russia win this war, unfortunately for Ukrainians. Why? Because we're talking about nuclear war here... Russia's threats are not just buffling! Most people they were buffling with invading Ukraine... now we know they are dead serious about this and we absolutely should not take our chances. To those who think this is just a first step: it's not. It really is not. All other European states that could possibly be invaded or even just harassed by Russia are already part of NATO except maybe for Finland (which while not being a NATO member, has very close relationship with NATO and is likely to be defended by NATO even if they don't become members in the next few months) and Moldova. So anything Russia does in Europe after this war is over will very likely cause NATO to react militarily (which it made clear it wouldn't do in Ukraine before the war started) probably before Russia even has a chance to move, so the story will be very different.