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These number are provided by Russian government. How can you be sure that they are true? Also, those so called "referenda" did not conform to Ukrainian laws.

severino 5y ago
> Also, those so called "referenda" did not conform to Ukrainian laws. Yet Ukraine had no intention at all to organize a "real" referenda under their laws. Instead, they preferred to keep on bombing those rebel regions in Eastern Ukraine. Now, they ask Russia to stop doing the very same thing.
- codedokode 5y ago
  > Yet Ukraine had no intention at all to organize a "real" referenda under their laws Why should they cede their land to someone? And why should referendum be held only in one region, and not in the whole country? No country will agree to this. Will Putin organize a referendum if I suggest that my city separate from Russia and join European Union? Did Putin or Eltsin organize such referendum in Chechnya? It doesn't matter whether Ukraine should or should not have hold such referendum. It is Russian soldiers who crossed the border and pulled the trigger first in 2014, not Ukranian. The war (as almost every war) is there because Putin and many Russians want more land, more glorious victories and more political influence, not because someone didn't organize a referendum.
freeflight 5y ago
How can you be sure they are not true? During these last 30 years there's been 3 different referenda about Crimea, all with roughly the same outcomes. > Also, those so called "referenda" did not conform to Ukrainian laws. US independence did also not conform to British laws, the existence of Kurdistan is not conform with Iraqi or Syrian national laws, Catalonian independence would not be conform with Spanish law, yet there is a human right to self determination. What's also not conform, with a whole slew of national laws, is violently overthrowing a democratically elected government, as it happened in Kyiv 2014.
- codedokode 5y ago
  Russian government has a long history of meddling with elections, non-admission of candidates, falsifying results, for example [1] or [2]. Therefore they cannot be trusted, especially in this case. You cannot compare US war for independence with Crimea occupation because in US it was an internal movement to become idependent from a metropoly, but in Ukraine the events that occured were caused by Russian military intervention with purpose of annexation of Ukrainian territories. Before Russian intervention in 2014, there were no significant efforts to become independent, there were no war and nobody was dying. The same with Catalonia. > What's also not conform, with a whole slew of national laws, is violently overthrowing a democratically elected government First, their president wasn't overthrown, because he has left the country himself. Second, that doesn't give Russia a right to annex territories. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2018_Primorsky_Krai_gubernatorial_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2018_Primorsky_Krai_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Moscow_City_Duma_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Moscow_City_Duma_election
  - weberer 5y ago
    >The same with Catalonia. Wait, what? Catalonia had nothing to do with Russia.
  - White_Wolf 5y ago
    It's not exactly true that Russia was the cause of it. At least not fully. I'd share the blame between US, EU and Russia, equally. Worth watching this for a background of how the whole thing started. The guy was pretty on point with it, and it checks out from other sources too. UnCommon Core: The Causes and Consequences of the Ukraine Crisis John J. Mearsheimer - The University of Chicago - 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
  - freeflight 5y ago
    > their president wasn't overthrown, because he has left the country himself So it would only count as a regime change if he stayed to get killed by an angry mob? > that doesn't give Russia a right to annex territories But states and their parliaments very much have a right not to acknowledge a new central government that came to power trough violence. The Crimean state parliament did not recognize the new Ukrainian government, thus held a referendum what to do about the situation [0] Said state parliament was voted in power by the people of Crimea before anything in Kyiv even escalated. You acting like that doesn't matter, so you can regurgitate "Russian annexation!" does not only deny the Crimean state parliament agency, it very casually denies the Crimean people, as represented by the state parliament, their own representation. So unless you have evidence how Russia replaced the whole state parliament, how Russia actually meddled in the referendum, that long you are spreading disinformation when you keep calling the situation as annexation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

severino 5y ago

> Also, those so called "referenda" did not conform to Ukrainian laws. Yet Ukraine had no intention at all to organize a "real" referenda under their laws. Instead, they preferred to keep on bombing those rebel regions in Eastern Ukraine. Now, they ask Russia to stop doing the very same thing.

codedokode 5y ago
> Yet Ukraine had no intention at all to organize a "real" referenda under their laws Why should they cede their land to someone? And why should referendum be held only in one region, and not in the whole country? No country will agree to this. Will Putin organize a referendum if I suggest that my city separate from Russia and join European Union? Did Putin or Eltsin organize such referendum in Chechnya? It doesn't matter whether Ukraine should or should not have hold such referendum. It is Russian soldiers who crossed the border and pulled the trigger first in 2014, not Ukranian. The war (as almost every war) is there because Putin and many Russians want more land, more glorious victories and more political influence, not because someone didn't organize a referendum.

freeflight 5y ago

How can you be sure they are not true? During these last 30 years there's been 3 different referenda about Crimea, all with roughly the same outcomes. > Also, those so called "referenda" did not conform to Ukrainian laws. US independence did also not conform to British laws, the existence of Kurdistan is not conform with Iraqi or Syrian national laws, Catalonian independence would not be conform with Spanish law, yet there is a human right to self determination. What's also not conform, with a whole slew of national laws, is violently overthrowing a democratically elected government, as it happened in Kyiv 2014.

codedokode 5y ago
Russian government has a long history of meddling with elections, non-admission of candidates, falsifying results, for example [1] or [2]. Therefore they cannot be trusted, especially in this case. You cannot compare US war for independence with Crimea occupation because in US it was an internal movement to become idependent from a metropoly, but in Ukraine the events that occured were caused by Russian military intervention with purpose of annexation of Ukrainian territories. Before Russian intervention in 2014, there were no significant efforts to become independent, there were no war and nobody was dying. The same with Catalonia. > What's also not conform, with a whole slew of national laws, is violently overthrowing a democratically elected government First, their president wasn't overthrown, because he has left the country himself. Second, that doesn't give Russia a right to annex territories. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2018_Primorsky_Krai_gubernatorial_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2018_Primorsky_Krai_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Moscow_City_Duma_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Moscow_City_Duma_election
- weberer 5y ago
  >The same with Catalonia. Wait, what? Catalonia had nothing to do with Russia.
- White_Wolf 5y ago
  It's not exactly true that Russia was the cause of it. At least not fully. I'd share the blame between US, EU and Russia, equally. Worth watching this for a background of how the whole thing started. The guy was pretty on point with it, and it checks out from other sources too. UnCommon Core: The Causes and Consequences of the Ukraine Crisis John J. Mearsheimer - The University of Chicago - 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
- freeflight 5y ago
  > their president wasn't overthrown, because he has left the country himself So it would only count as a regime change if he stayed to get killed by an angry mob? > that doesn't give Russia a right to annex territories But states and their parliaments very much have a right not to acknowledge a new central government that came to power trough violence. The Crimean state parliament did not recognize the new Ukrainian government, thus held a referendum what to do about the situation [0] Said state parliament was voted in power by the people of Crimea before anything in Kyiv even escalated. You acting like that doesn't matter, so you can regurgitate "Russian annexation!" does not only deny the Crimean state parliament agency, it very casually denies the Crimean people, as represented by the state parliament, their own representation. So unless you have evidence how Russia replaced the whole state parliament, how Russia actually meddled in the referendum, that long you are spreading disinformation when you keep calling the situation as annexation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum