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> is the total number of reported thefts To be clear, that's only for "theft by conversion reports". The article points out there's "an unknown number of other

> is the total number of reported thefts To be clear, that's only for "theft by conversion reports". The article points out there's "an unknown number of other types of theft reports, since the other categories are still under seal." Your logic seems to be that Hertz should be free to cut costs by outsourcing inventory control to the police - even when the car is on the lot! - so long as its statistical impact is less than that of scuba diving? Because Hertz has been sued before. https://www.yahoo.com/news/ve-rented-car-hertz-could-140608298.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/ve-rented-car-hertz-could-1406082... > During a lawsuit in Philadelphia in 2017, before the Hertz bankruptcy, Hertz’s national vehicle control supervisor took the stand and admitted on cross-examination that police reports do not always contain accurate payment information, contacts with customers, and that Hertz does not correct or supplement reports that it knows are false or misleading. > “Hertz is on record as saying that even when they learn information (in police reports) is inaccurate, they refused to correct it because it would hurt their relationship with the police and the police will no longer take their false police reports,” Malofiy said. > Court records show that police at the Indianapolis and Louisville airports did just that. After multiple reports of stolen vehicles that ended up being located on Hertz’s lots, those agencies reportedly said they wouldn’t take new reports from the company.

kragen 5y ago
Well, I don't think Hertz should be using lethal force against anyone, even by proxy. So in particular I don't think they should outsource inventory control to the police. But whether you should worry about this depends on who you are and what position you're in. From the point of view of a court or a lawmaker this is relevant, but for someone who's considering whether to rent a car there, the risk is probably too small to worry about.
- eesmith 5y ago
  Nonsense. There are multiple vendors for rental cars. When something like this happens, use another vendor. Else there's no economic reason for Hertz to change, and overall consumer conditions get worse.
  - kragen 5y ago
    There's no particular reason to think other vendors are safer, and since we're talking about a risk on the order of 1 in 100,000, it's not worth worrying about. Presumably non-conversion thefts (the more traditional kind of theft where somebody hotwires a car or something) are not a thing rental car vendors normally accuse their customers of.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      You think this is a standard industry practice? You think there are police stations across the country ignoring calls from local rental agencies reporting a stolen car?
      - kragen 5y ago
        I'm guessing that reporting car thefts to the police is a standard industry practice, I know that any such discrimination process carried out by humans has some nonzero probability of both type I and type II errors, and I'm amazed that the number of thefts they report is so low. The very low number of theft reports suggests to me that, despite the apparently ridiculously slipshod procedure described in the article, Hertz's process may actually be heavily biased in the direction of type II errors. I'm not sure what you mean about ignoring calls. Why would I have any particular belief about police stations ignoring calls? Police stations ignoring calls isn't mentioned in the article or my comments. Is there a logical entailment from something I said that isn't obvious to me?
        eesmith 5y ago
        In my original comment I linked to and quoted a source providing more information, including: > Court records show that police at the Indianapolis and Louisville airports did just that. After multiple reports of stolen vehicles that ended up being located on Hertz’s lots, those agencies reportedly said they wouldn’t take new reports from the company. Should I infer you didn't fully read that comment? Alternatively, the linked-to article in "the company does not withdraw the theft report, a Hertz spokesperson told The Philadelphia Inquirer." links to https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/hertz-530-million-lawsuit-customers-arrested-bankruptcy-court.html https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/hertz-530-million-lawsuit-c... > In 2015, the regional airport in Louisville, Ky., put a limit on the number of theft accusations it would accept from Hertz, according to documents supplied by Malofiy. In 2016, Indianapolis Airport police also began to turn down Hertz complaints. Hertz said those issues were addressed. There are more details of the plaintiff's claims in the link in "The number is part of the evidence in an ongoing lawsuit in which more than 100 customers are suing Hertz for $529.7 million" to https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/hertz-530-million-lawsuit-customers-arrested-bankruptcy-court.html https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/hertz-530-million-lawsuit-c... > According to their filings, for years Hertz has falsely reported that its cars were stolen as part of its regular business practice, "ensnaring its customers in accusations of car theft, throwing them in jail on felony charges, prosecuting them, burdening them with criminal records that impact their livelihoods, and separating them from their family and loved ones." > Why would Hertz claim that its cars were stolen when legitimate renters were driving them? Believe it or not, the filing claims this is a cost-cutting measure. In some cases, the company simply misplaces a car or a rental contract and doesn't know where the car is. Rather than upgrade its malfunctioning inventory systems or conduct its own investigation when cars are unaccounted for, Hertz simply reports these cars as stolen, the filing claims. The plaintiffs say the company is "effectively using the police, criminal justice system, and taxpayers to subsidize inventory control for a private corporation." The unfortunate renters who happen to be driving those cars are collateral damage. Your argument appears to be that Hertz follows standard industry practice, and even if the plaintiff's claim is true overall no worse on average than any of a number of other activities, so nothing anyone should worry about. Is that an accurate summary?

kragen 5y ago

Well, I don't think Hertz should be using lethal force against anyone, even by proxy. So in particular I don't think they should outsource inventory control to the police. But whether you should worry about this depends on who you are and what position you're in. From the point of view of a court or a lawmaker this is relevant, but for someone who's considering whether to rent a car there, the risk is probably too small to worry about.

eesmith 5y ago
Nonsense. There are multiple vendors for rental cars. When something like this happens, use another vendor. Else there's no economic reason for Hertz to change, and overall consumer conditions get worse.
- kragen 5y ago
  There's no particular reason to think other vendors are safer, and since we're talking about a risk on the order of 1 in 100,000, it's not worth worrying about. Presumably non-conversion thefts (the more traditional kind of theft where somebody hotwires a car or something) are not a thing rental car vendors normally accuse their customers of.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    You think this is a standard industry practice? You think there are police stations across the country ignoring calls from local rental agencies reporting a stolen car?
    - kragen 5y ago
      I'm guessing that reporting car thefts to the police is a standard industry practice, I know that any such discrimination process carried out by humans has some nonzero probability of both type I and type II errors, and I'm amazed that the number of thefts they report is so low. The very low number of theft reports suggests to me that, despite the apparently ridiculously slipshod procedure described in the article, Hertz's process may actually be heavily biased in the direction of type II errors. I'm not sure what you mean about ignoring calls. Why would I have any particular belief about police stations ignoring calls? Police stations ignoring calls isn't mentioned in the article or my comments. Is there a logical entailment from something I said that isn't obvious to me?
      - eesmith 5y ago
        In my original comment I linked to and quoted a source providing more information, including: > Court records show that police at the Indianapolis and Louisville airports did just that. After multiple reports of stolen vehicles that ended up being located on Hertz’s lots, those agencies reportedly said they wouldn’t take new reports from the company. Should I infer you didn't fully read that comment? Alternatively, the linked-to article in "the company does not withdraw the theft report, a Hertz spokesperson told The Philadelphia Inquirer." links to https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/hertz-530-million-lawsuit-customers-arrested-bankruptcy-court.html https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/hertz-530-million-lawsuit-c... > In 2015, the regional airport in Louisville, Ky., put a limit on the number of theft accusations it would accept from Hertz, according to documents supplied by Malofiy. In 2016, Indianapolis Airport police also began to turn down Hertz complaints. Hertz said those issues were addressed. There are more details of the plaintiff's claims in the link in "The number is part of the evidence in an ongoing lawsuit in which more than 100 customers are suing Hertz for $529.7 million" to https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/hertz-530-million-lawsuit-customers-arrested-bankruptcy-court.html https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/hertz-530-million-lawsuit-c... > According to their filings, for years Hertz has falsely reported that its cars were stolen as part of its regular business practice, "ensnaring its customers in accusations of car theft, throwing them in jail on felony charges, prosecuting them, burdening them with criminal records that impact their livelihoods, and separating them from their family and loved ones." > Why would Hertz claim that its cars were stolen when legitimate renters were driving them? Believe it or not, the filing claims this is a cost-cutting measure. In some cases, the company simply misplaces a car or a rental contract and doesn't know where the car is. Rather than upgrade its malfunctioning inventory systems or conduct its own investigation when cars are unaccounted for, Hertz simply reports these cars as stolen, the filing claims. The plaintiffs say the company is "effectively using the police, criminal justice system, and taxpayers to subsidize inventory control for a private corporation." The unfortunate renters who happen to be driving those cars are collateral damage. Your argument appears to be that Hertz follows standard industry practice, and even if the plaintiff's claim is true overall no worse on average than any of a number of other activities, so nothing anyone should worry about. Is that an accurate summary?