5 ms·

Do you have equal contempt for the New York Times which knowingly sold us a War in Iraq by constantly repeating a lie about WMD, resulting in 500,000 dead Iraqi

by lowkey 5y ago

Do you have equal contempt for the New York Times which knowingly sold us a War in Iraq by constantly repeating a lie about WMD, resulting in 500,000 dead Iraqis? There are no 'good guys' in this war. - Putin is a brutal dictator. - America is pushing an amazing amount of propaganda in this war while simultaneously sending arms and funds to back a Saudi bombing campaign in Yemen targeting civilians. - Ukraine has enlisted openly white supremacist neo-nazi's in their national guard to fight Russia in the east. - Facebook even unbanned the Ukranian Azov Brigade [0] this week as long as they are fighting the Russians [1] This is a war with no heroes and no winners, even though we have been taught to hate the 'others' to the point of targeting everyday Russian citizens, even those who oppose Putin's actions. The truth is the first casualty in times of war. Propaganda works on all of us. The best thing we can do is realize that fact. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion [1] https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/ https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-ba...

ibero 5y ago
> this is a war with no heroes pretty sure i seen some heroes.
- lowkey 5y ago
  How sure are you that at least some of that wasn't manufactured propaganda? You do realize that propaganda works for both sides and it can be hard to identify in the fog of war. All I am saying is that it pays to be skeptical in these troubling times.
  - ibero 5y ago
    i saw a man running into a crumbling building that was mortared to hell to get their neighbors children out.
    - lowkey 5y ago
      That is fantastic and that man is most certainly a hero, no argument. That said, my question was about how certain you were that at least some of the heroic acts you read or watched, were not some form of propaganda? Call me cynical but as soon as the conflict started I started investigating claims from both sides and I learned that a significant amount of what we heard early in this invasion turned out to be false propaganda. Examples: - Figher Ghost Ace turns out to be a myth https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/02/ukraines-fighter-ace-ghost-of-kyiv-may-be-myth-its-lethal-war-morale.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/02/ukraines-figh... - Israel TV Channel shows Star Wars Tie Fighter crash landed in Ukraine https://www.nytimespost.com/israeli-tv-channel-runs-live-footage-from-ukraine-showing-crash-landed-tie-fighter-from-star-wars/ https://www.nytimespost.com/israeli-tv-channel-runs-live-foo... - According to Reuters/MSNBC/US Officials - There is no evidence Russia attacked nuclear reactors in Ukraine. https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-usa-nuclear-energy-idUKW1N2U401C https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-usa-nuclear-e...
      - clusterfish 5y ago
        You won't find 100% correctness even in peace time. That doesn't mean you can throw your hands in the air and assume that information from both sides of the conflict is on average equally (un)trustworthy. There's tons of evidence to show the horrors of what Russia is doing in Ukraine, and stuff like the ghost of Kyiv is just a morale boost for Ukrainians and is utterly irrelevant. So yes, you should of course be sceptical, but no amount of honest and fair scepticism will paint Russia's invasion in a significantly better light.
        lowkey 5y ago
        I don't expect you to watch this full video but will leave it here for anyone who is curious about the broader context for this conflict. TL;DR: The war didn't start last week. It has been ongoing since 2014 and involves horrible acts from both sides. No, they don't average out and unfortunately we may never know what the 'truth' is here. I won't pretend to have all the answers, but I will say after watching the video, the situation appears to be much more complicated than it is being depicted on western media. Curiosity Stream: Why Russia is invading Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE
M4v3R 5y ago
> Ukraine has enlisted openly white supremacist neo-nazi's in their national guard to fight Russia in the east [Citation needed]
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
- clusterfish 5y ago
  There's Azov batallion, but Russia has its own Wagner group. None of that is an excuse to invade another country and shell civilians of course.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    Today I learned. Just so we are clear, do we both agree that supporting Nazi soldiers is a bad thing no matter which side? Also, it seems we both agree that invading another country and shelling civilians is also wrong, whether it is Russia or the US or others waging wars of aggression.
    - clusterfish 5y ago
      I'm with you on all points. Nazis are bad, of course. Invasions are bad. The reason I cared to comment is because Ukrainian Nazis are used as justification for the invasion in Russia. But nazis exist in many countries, and are given legitimacy in many countries. In Ukraine they're paramilitary, in Russia they're a mercenary force, in Germany they sit in parliament (AFD), in US they have obvious affiliation with the political party that is in power half the time (and have strong legal protections for both their speech and guns). All of that can be used as excuses to forcefully "denazify" a country, like Russia is doing now, but none of that are actually good reasons to invade those countries or deny any of those countries the right for independence, not even close.
    - CoastalCoder 5y ago
      If I may add my two cents: I disagree that supporting $BADGUY soldiers is always bad. It's conceivable that in some situations, it seems likely to result in the less-evil outcome. Case in point, suppose you had a neo-nazi unit offering to take out a Russian artillery battery that was shelling civilians. Do you refuse to truck them to that vicinity because you find them repugnant? Life is full of hard choices; doubly so in war.
MattGaiser 5y ago
> - Ukraine has enlisted openly white supremacist neo-nazi's in their national guard to fight Russia in the east. If you are a male in Ukraine, you are essentially enlisted at this point. Heck, prisoners are being released to fight.
- lowkey 5y ago
  I believe those are relatively recent developments. The Azov Battalion by contrast have been active members of Ukraine's national guard since at least 2014.
  - timeon 5y ago
    Coincidentally there is war in Ukraine since 2014.
jmpman 5y ago
I’ve never voted for a politician who voted for the Iraq war. If other Americans had the same stance, our politicians would stop getting us into wars like Iraq. It’s my #1 issue over anything else.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
SyzygistSix 5y ago
> - Ukraine has enlisted openly white supremacist neo-nazi's in their national guard to fight Russia in the east. While they continue to fight for the sovereignty of a nation headed by a Jewish president I can see how they could be useful. Soldiers often aren't nice people. Most countries have at least a few hundred of these types of neo-Nazis.
- lowkey 5y ago
  No other country that is allied with western liberal democracies openly employs Neo-Nazis in any capacity to my knowledge, other than Ukraine. Please share examples if you have them. It should be easy if, as you say “most countries have at least a few hundred.” I’m struggling to understand how I am the minority here calling out what I always thought was a widely agreed principle on HN i.e. Nazis = bad. Nazis are not the good guys and fighting alongside Nazis, even if convenient, is wrong. A few weeks ago this statement would have been so obvious as to be redundant on HN. What if we win the war but lose our moral compass? How do you explain to your kids that Nazis are bad except sometimes they are useful so not always bad?

by lowkey 5y ago

ibero 5y ago

> this is a war with no heroes pretty sure i seen some heroes.

lowkey 5y ago
How sure are you that at least some of that wasn't manufactured propaganda? You do realize that propaganda works for both sides and it can be hard to identify in the fog of war. All I am saying is that it pays to be skeptical in these troubling times.
- ibero 5y ago
  i saw a man running into a crumbling building that was mortared to hell to get their neighbors children out.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    That is fantastic and that man is most certainly a hero, no argument. That said, my question was about how certain you were that at least some of the heroic acts you read or watched, were not some form of propaganda? Call me cynical but as soon as the conflict started I started investigating claims from both sides and I learned that a significant amount of what we heard early in this invasion turned out to be false propaganda. Examples: - Figher Ghost Ace turns out to be a myth https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/02/ukraines-fighter-ace-ghost-of-kyiv-may-be-myth-its-lethal-war-morale.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/02/ukraines-figh... - Israel TV Channel shows Star Wars Tie Fighter crash landed in Ukraine https://www.nytimespost.com/israeli-tv-channel-runs-live-footage-from-ukraine-showing-crash-landed-tie-fighter-from-star-wars/ https://www.nytimespost.com/israeli-tv-channel-runs-live-foo... - According to Reuters/MSNBC/US Officials - There is no evidence Russia attacked nuclear reactors in Ukraine. https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-usa-nuclear-energy-idUKW1N2U401C https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-usa-nuclear-e...
    - clusterfish 5y ago
      You won't find 100% correctness even in peace time. That doesn't mean you can throw your hands in the air and assume that information from both sides of the conflict is on average equally (un)trustworthy. There's tons of evidence to show the horrors of what Russia is doing in Ukraine, and stuff like the ghost of Kyiv is just a morale boost for Ukrainians and is utterly irrelevant. So yes, you should of course be sceptical, but no amount of honest and fair scepticism will paint Russia's invasion in a significantly better light.
      - lowkey 5y ago
        I don't expect you to watch this full video but will leave it here for anyone who is curious about the broader context for this conflict. TL;DR: The war didn't start last week. It has been ongoing since 2014 and involves horrible acts from both sides. No, they don't average out and unfortunately we may never know what the 'truth' is here. I won't pretend to have all the answers, but I will say after watching the video, the situation appears to be much more complicated than it is being depicted on western media. Curiosity Stream: Why Russia is invading Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE

M4v3R 5y ago

> Ukraine has enlisted openly white supremacist neo-nazi's in their national guard to fight Russia in the east [Citation needed]

dragonwriter 5y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
clusterfish 5y ago
There's Azov batallion, but Russia has its own Wagner group. None of that is an excuse to invade another country and shell civilians of course.
- lowkey 5y ago
  Today I learned. Just so we are clear, do we both agree that supporting Nazi soldiers is a bad thing no matter which side? Also, it seems we both agree that invading another country and shelling civilians is also wrong, whether it is Russia or the US or others waging wars of aggression.
  - clusterfish 5y ago
    I'm with you on all points. Nazis are bad, of course. Invasions are bad. The reason I cared to comment is because Ukrainian Nazis are used as justification for the invasion in Russia. But nazis exist in many countries, and are given legitimacy in many countries. In Ukraine they're paramilitary, in Russia they're a mercenary force, in Germany they sit in parliament (AFD), in US they have obvious affiliation with the political party that is in power half the time (and have strong legal protections for both their speech and guns). All of that can be used as excuses to forcefully "denazify" a country, like Russia is doing now, but none of that are actually good reasons to invade those countries or deny any of those countries the right for independence, not even close.
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    If I may add my two cents: I disagree that supporting $BADGUY soldiers is always bad. It's conceivable that in some situations, it seems likely to result in the less-evil outcome. Case in point, suppose you had a neo-nazi unit offering to take out a Russian artillery battery that was shelling civilians. Do you refuse to truck them to that vicinity because you find them repugnant? Life is full of hard choices; doubly so in war.

MattGaiser 5y ago

> - Ukraine has enlisted openly white supremacist neo-nazi's in their national guard to fight Russia in the east. If you are a male in Ukraine, you are essentially enlisted at this point. Heck, prisoners are being released to fight.

lowkey 5y ago
I believe those are relatively recent developments. The Azov Battalion by contrast have been active members of Ukraine's national guard since at least 2014.
- timeon 5y ago
  Coincidentally there is war in Ukraine since 2014.

jmpman 5y ago

I’ve never voted for a politician who voted for the Iraq war. If other Americans had the same stance, our politicians would stop getting us into wars like Iraq. It’s my #1 issue over anything else.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

SyzygistSix 5y ago

> - Ukraine has enlisted openly white supremacist neo-nazi's in their national guard to fight Russia in the east. While they continue to fight for the sovereignty of a nation headed by a Jewish president I can see how they could be useful. Soldiers often aren't nice people. Most countries have at least a few hundred of these types of neo-Nazis.

lowkey 5y ago
No other country that is allied with western liberal democracies openly employs Neo-Nazis in any capacity to my knowledge, other than Ukraine. Please share examples if you have them. It should be easy if, as you say “most countries have at least a few hundred.” I’m struggling to understand how I am the minority here calling out what I always thought was a widely agreed principle on HN i.e. Nazis = bad. Nazis are not the good guys and fighting alongside Nazis, even if convenient, is wrong. A few weeks ago this statement would have been so obvious as to be redundant on HN. What if we win the war but lose our moral compass? How do you explain to your kids that Nazis are bad except sometimes they are useful so not always bad?