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> their old agency paid off a Google insider to flag our client’s account resulting in suspension That's extremely serious. If you wanted to share details with

by jefftk 5y ago

> their old agency paid off a Google insider to flag our client’s account resulting in suspension That's extremely serious. If you wanted to share details with me I can raise the issue internally; my email is in my profile. (Speaking only for myself)

hackmiester 5y ago
I applaud Googlers who try to put the "don't be evil" genie back in the bottle, but I wish you would point your energy toward a more-achievable goal.
- jefftk 5y ago
  Regardless of what you think of Google's business practices, paying off insiders is absolutely not something that any of us should accept.
  - anm89 5y ago
    Paying off an insider to get something done that actually needed to be done seems a hell of a lot less problematic than capriciously destroying someones livelihood with no justification at all as the parent indicates that Google did to them. There's nothing wrong with taking gobs of money to work at a huge corporation but at least be honest that they are terrible.
    - post-it 5y ago
      You misread, I think. > Later we learned their old agency paid off a Google insider to flag our client’s account resulting in suspension.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - anm89 5y ago
        You are right. I thought someone else paid to get the account restored.
    - burnished 5y ago
      TFA states that a google insider was paid by a competitor to suspend their account.
      - anm89 5y ago
        You are right. I thought someone else paid to get the account restored.
  - zorpner 5y ago
    You have already accepted it, by continuing to work for a company that does it (regularly -- this is hardly a unique story).
    - rmbyrro 5y ago
      If they quit a job anytime something happens contrary to what they believe, they'll will switch jobs every week. Every employer will have skeletons in the closet. Or out of the closet...
    - jefftk 5y ago
      Sorry, are you saying that it is common for people to bribe insiders to bypass policy and hurt their competitors? This is the first time I've heard a story like this.
      - hluska 5y ago
        Hey friend - you did something very good today. It was kind of you to offer your help. I hope you have a really good weekend...:)
      - zorpner 5y ago
        Yeah, you can even Google™ to find many other such stories.
      - registeredcorn 5y ago
        It's difficult to tell if you are being sarcastic or not.
        registeredcorn 5y ago
        To the persons voting my comment into the dirt, I was being sincere. If you really have never heard of this type of thing occurring, then you are either willfully ignorant, or completely separated from the reality of how business is conducted with Google. I don't say this with malice, but with plain honesty. This is a fundamental part of how the interaction with Google works. To deny this so plainly can only make any sort of sense through sarcasm.
- tomcam 5y ago
  I applaud Googlers who try to do the right thing and I don't understand why a random person on HN should dis them for it.
  - f1refly 5y ago
    "Just get you issue to the front page of hacker news, if you can't make it fuck off" is not a valid support strategy for one of the biggest corporations in the worls
    - tomcam 5y ago
      Would you prefer nothing to happen? In the real world, we have two bad choices: either google ignores it completely, which I’m certainly not defending, or some of its employees try to make good. Why punish people for doing the right thing? Of course I think their support is generally reprehensible. But we don’t have a third choice right now, so these employees taking initiative seems like a win.
      - mpol 5y ago
        Or maybe it's part of their strategy? Remember, Google is an advertising agency. They are sending a message out that their support is maybe not 100% adequate, but if you do have an issue, just raise your voice on social media and it will be fixed. In the end everything will turn out allright, not? The message they are sending out is downright misleading. Maybe we should even say no to that.
      - hackerfromthefu 5y ago
        What you are describing is the problem. Both your options are terrible. This needs regulating.
        tomcam 5y ago
        uh they aren’t my options. They are what’s available in the real world right now, not what you and I would prefer be available.
- veltas 5y ago
  This would fall under anti-corruption laws, it's a legal matter and Google is obligated to show due diligence in investigating any disclosures, in any form they may appear.
noasaservice 5y ago
Until there's a legally mandated dispute process that requires disclosure as to why an individual/org is blocked and whom or what system ordered it, and how to challenge it; your individual efforts will fall on deaf ears. Hell, until there's accountability, you might as well join in on the racket and take payola for hellbanning. Most systems these days are automated blackboxes of hellbanning, whether you pay or not. It is the 1950's parodies of the USSR "You know what you did, and we cant tell you what you did because you already know". And here it is. Google is only one such.
Schroedingersat 5y ago
The only way to improve it is to quit.
ent101 5y ago
You seem to be the closest person on this thread who can answer questions about Google. Can you please tell us why Google summarily suspends accounts? Why is there absolutely no way to talk to a human being?
- jefftk 5y ago
  I can't speak for Google, and I don't work in that part of ads, but my understanding is it's primarily because of how adversarial fraud detection is. If you give people who violate policy detailed information about what they did wrong and how you know then it is much easier for them to figure out how to abuse the system without getting caught. I don't like it, but I also don't know how to fix it.
  - ent101 5y ago
    Thank you for the response. Please read this comment. This does make sense, but why the atrocious support? I mean at least reply to emails even if we have to wait for a month to get a response, just give us something real not the canned, automated email. I've never ever clicked on any of my own ads EVER and I got suspended for "click fraud" and I'm sure there are many people like me... Why do I have to be terminated without any recourse? This feels, for the lack of a better word, pure evil and cruel. This makes people deeply hurt and hate the brand. I'm a developer and a business owner and because of my experience with Adsense and Adwords there is NO WAY I'll ever use Google Cloud, no matter how much discount Google is willing to give me and I'm definitely not alone in this. This behaviour is going to destroy Google in the long term. Right now you guys make money on advertising, but as soon as you need to sell something, I'm not sure people who have been hurt are willing to pay for it.
    - js4ever 5y ago
      Agreed, I have been burned in the past (2015) by a ban on google play store and adsense on one of my business. It was impossible to talk to a human or get any details and this killed the company. I'm now a Google hater, I'll never do any business with them like EVER even if they pay me to use their products. Also I'm the opposite of an ambassador for Google brand. I managed to turn several huge customers in EU and US to AWS or Azure solutions instead of Google cloud... Several times and I'll continue to recommend companies to not do anything with Google. Yes in the long run their attitude and people's like me will continue to destroy their brand.
dollar 5y ago
I sincerely appreciate the offer. This problem is too “cold” to resurrect today, and far too late for our business. I would be glad to know that Google is taking steps to ensure this cannot happen in the future. Specifically: * When an Ads account is suspended it can be devastating to the business or the Google partner. We should have the opportunity to speak with human beings, to bring forth evidence to the contrary, and to escalate within Google instead of with attorneys. * The vast majority of businesses and agencies simply want to follow Google policies to the letter. Unfortunately the letter of policy is often ambiguous or unclear. When a policy violation is alleged, particularly against long standing and high dollar Ads accounts, there should be a presumption of innocence. Google should explain clearly and directly what is needed to remedy policy violations instead of playing security through obscurity and “guess what I want” games. * At the end of our time as a Google partner, the automation had become unbearable. We spent 90% of our time resubmitting Ads and campaigns that were suspended or halted for no apparent or clear reason, analogous to advertisement “whack a mole”. Imagine literally any other outlet treating advertisers this way. For example, imagine Viacom suspending a nationwide ad campaign without a word of explanation. Imagine The New York Times pulling an ad without so much as a call or email. It’s patently absurd.
- jefftk 5y ago
  > This problem is too “cold” to resurrect today How long ago was it? It may not be...
  - mdrzn 5y ago
    > * When an Ads account is suspended it can be devastating to the business or the Google partner. We should have the opportunity to speak with human beings, to bring forth evidence to the contrary, and to escalate within Google instead of with attorneys. Let's start with this! I too had a Google Ads randomly get nuked and had no way to talk to any customer service agent, after thousands of $ of spending a month.

by jefftk 5y ago

hackmiester 5y ago

I applaud Googlers who try to put the "don't be evil" genie back in the bottle, but I wish you would point your energy toward a more-achievable goal.

jefftk 5y ago
Regardless of what you think of Google's business practices, paying off insiders is absolutely not something that any of us should accept.
- anm89 5y ago
  Paying off an insider to get something done that actually needed to be done seems a hell of a lot less problematic than capriciously destroying someones livelihood with no justification at all as the parent indicates that Google did to them. There's nothing wrong with taking gobs of money to work at a huge corporation but at least be honest that they are terrible.
  - post-it 5y ago
    You misread, I think. > Later we learned their old agency paid off a Google insider to flag our client’s account resulting in suspension.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - anm89 5y ago
      You are right. I thought someone else paid to get the account restored.
  - burnished 5y ago
    TFA states that a google insider was paid by a competitor to suspend their account.
    - anm89 5y ago
      You are right. I thought someone else paid to get the account restored.
- zorpner 5y ago
  You have already accepted it, by continuing to work for a company that does it (regularly -- this is hardly a unique story).
  - rmbyrro 5y ago
    If they quit a job anytime something happens contrary to what they believe, they'll will switch jobs every week. Every employer will have skeletons in the closet. Or out of the closet...
  - jefftk 5y ago
    Sorry, are you saying that it is common for people to bribe insiders to bypass policy and hurt their competitors? This is the first time I've heard a story like this.
    - hluska 5y ago
      Hey friend - you did something very good today. It was kind of you to offer your help. I hope you have a really good weekend...:)
    - zorpner 5y ago
      Yeah, you can even Google™ to find many other such stories.
    - registeredcorn 5y ago
      It's difficult to tell if you are being sarcastic or not.
      - registeredcorn 5y ago
        To the persons voting my comment into the dirt, I was being sincere. If you really have never heard of this type of thing occurring, then you are either willfully ignorant, or completely separated from the reality of how business is conducted with Google. I don't say this with malice, but with plain honesty. This is a fundamental part of how the interaction with Google works. To deny this so plainly can only make any sort of sense through sarcasm.
tomcam 5y ago
I applaud Googlers who try to do the right thing and I don't understand why a random person on HN should dis them for it.
- f1refly 5y ago
  "Just get you issue to the front page of hacker news, if you can't make it fuck off" is not a valid support strategy for one of the biggest corporations in the worls
  - tomcam 5y ago
    Would you prefer nothing to happen? In the real world, we have two bad choices: either google ignores it completely, which I’m certainly not defending, or some of its employees try to make good. Why punish people for doing the right thing? Of course I think their support is generally reprehensible. But we don’t have a third choice right now, so these employees taking initiative seems like a win.
    - mpol 5y ago
      Or maybe it's part of their strategy? Remember, Google is an advertising agency. They are sending a message out that their support is maybe not 100% adequate, but if you do have an issue, just raise your voice on social media and it will be fixed. In the end everything will turn out allright, not? The message they are sending out is downright misleading. Maybe we should even say no to that.
    - hackerfromthefu 5y ago
      What you are describing is the problem. Both your options are terrible. This needs regulating.
      - tomcam 5y ago
        uh they aren’t my options. They are what’s available in the real world right now, not what you and I would prefer be available.
veltas 5y ago
This would fall under anti-corruption laws, it's a legal matter and Google is obligated to show due diligence in investigating any disclosures, in any form they may appear.

noasaservice 5y ago

Until there's a legally mandated dispute process that requires disclosure as to why an individual/org is blocked and whom or what system ordered it, and how to challenge it; your individual efforts will fall on deaf ears. Hell, until there's accountability, you might as well join in on the racket and take payola for hellbanning. Most systems these days are automated blackboxes of hellbanning, whether you pay or not. It is the 1950's parodies of the USSR "You know what you did, and we cant tell you what you did because you already know". And here it is. Google is only one such.

Schroedingersat 5y ago

The only way to improve it is to quit.

ent101 5y ago

You seem to be the closest person on this thread who can answer questions about Google. Can you please tell us why Google summarily suspends accounts? Why is there absolutely no way to talk to a human being?

jefftk 5y ago
I can't speak for Google, and I don't work in that part of ads, but my understanding is it's primarily because of how adversarial fraud detection is. If you give people who violate policy detailed information about what they did wrong and how you know then it is much easier for them to figure out how to abuse the system without getting caught. I don't like it, but I also don't know how to fix it.
- ent101 5y ago
  Thank you for the response. Please read this comment. This does make sense, but why the atrocious support? I mean at least reply to emails even if we have to wait for a month to get a response, just give us something real not the canned, automated email. I've never ever clicked on any of my own ads EVER and I got suspended for "click fraud" and I'm sure there are many people like me... Why do I have to be terminated without any recourse? This feels, for the lack of a better word, pure evil and cruel. This makes people deeply hurt and hate the brand. I'm a developer and a business owner and because of my experience with Adsense and Adwords there is NO WAY I'll ever use Google Cloud, no matter how much discount Google is willing to give me and I'm definitely not alone in this. This behaviour is going to destroy Google in the long term. Right now you guys make money on advertising, but as soon as you need to sell something, I'm not sure people who have been hurt are willing to pay for it.
  - js4ever 5y ago
    Agreed, I have been burned in the past (2015) by a ban on google play store and adsense on one of my business. It was impossible to talk to a human or get any details and this killed the company. I'm now a Google hater, I'll never do any business with them like EVER even if they pay me to use their products. Also I'm the opposite of an ambassador for Google brand. I managed to turn several huge customers in EU and US to AWS or Azure solutions instead of Google cloud... Several times and I'll continue to recommend companies to not do anything with Google. Yes in the long run their attitude and people's like me will continue to destroy their brand.

dollar 5y ago

I sincerely appreciate the offer. This problem is too “cold” to resurrect today, and far too late for our business. I would be glad to know that Google is taking steps to ensure this cannot happen in the future. Specifically: * When an Ads account is suspended it can be devastating to the business or the Google partner. We should have the opportunity to speak with human beings, to bring forth evidence to the contrary, and to escalate within Google instead of with attorneys. * The vast majority of businesses and agencies simply want to follow Google policies to the letter. Unfortunately the letter of policy is often ambiguous or unclear. When a policy violation is alleged, particularly against long standing and high dollar Ads accounts, there should be a presumption of innocence. Google should explain clearly and directly what is needed to remedy policy violations instead of playing security through obscurity and “guess what I want” games. * At the end of our time as a Google partner, the automation had become unbearable. We spent 90% of our time resubmitting Ads and campaigns that were suspended or halted for no apparent or clear reason, analogous to advertisement “whack a mole”. Imagine literally any other outlet treating advertisers this way. For example, imagine Viacom suspending a nationwide ad campaign without a word of explanation. Imagine The New York Times pulling an ad without so much as a call or email. It’s patently absurd.

jefftk 5y ago
> This problem is too “cold” to resurrect today How long ago was it? It may not be...
- mdrzn 5y ago
  > * When an Ads account is suspended it can be devastating to the business or the Google partner. We should have the opportunity to speak with human beings, to bring forth evidence to the contrary, and to escalate within Google instead of with attorneys. Let's start with this! I too had a Google Ads randomly get nuked and had no way to talk to any customer service agent, after thousands of $ of spending a month.