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> But to say that what Russia is doing is somehow US's fault, that really does not make any sense. He's saying it is US's fault because Russia has been accommo

by qiskit 5y ago

> But to say that what Russia is doing is somehow US's fault, that really does not make any sense. He's saying it is US's fault because Russia has been accommodating the US for decades. Russia allowed NATO to gobble up country after country all the way to Russia's borders. > People say one thing and do another thing all the time, that's the way you play the game. Hence it's NATO's fault. It is NATO's greed that resulted in Georgians dying. It's NATO's greed that resulted in ukrainians dying. > But, one thing is to not keep your word about this or that, another thing is to start killing people. By the thousands. And destroy their homes. And make them leave their countries. Is really Mearsheimer incapable of understanding this difference? War is politics by other means. As you said "well, welcome to politics.". Yes, ukrainians are dying. You can thank NATO. The war in ukraine is a result of NATO's ( ultimately america's ) actions. NATO was the first mover ( aka the cause of it ). Nobody who has taken a class in international politics will debate it. None. And the biggest beneficiary of the ukraine war is NATO. Ukraine suffers, Russia suffer. NATO is sitting pretty. US told the Soviet Union putting nukes in cuba would lead to nuclear war. The soviet union backed off. Russia said NATO expansion to Ukraine or Georgia would lead to war. NATO discarded it. If the soviet union had put nukes on cuba and got attacked, it would be the soviet union's fault. Just like the blame for ukraine lies entirely with NATO. But that's academics. In reality, the propaganda will tell you who is to be blamed for what in each country. Can't wait to see what our meddling in Taiwan will lead to. Hopefully a serious punch in the mouth so we'll quit the empire business once and for all.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Russia allowed NATO to gobble up country after country all the way to Russia's borders. NATO didn't gobble them up, they voluntarily joined, and they weren't Russian colonies such that it was a matter of Russia “letting” anyone do anything. Russia is the one that has been literally gobbling up (at least parts of, prior to the most recent attempt) neighboring cointries.
- qiskit 5y ago
  That's a very naive take. They weren't russian colonies but they were within its sphere of influence. Just like cuba, canada and the entire western hemisphere is within our sphere of influence. Do you know what would have lead to an invasion of canada? Canada's request to join the soviet union. Every major power has its sphere of influence and limits. The only shame is that we don't get to feel the pain of our actions. It will be ukrainians and eventually taiwanese who will feel the pain of our meddling. Just like in iraq, iran, syria, libya, etc. Hopefully that comes to an end sooner than later so we'll stop causing trouble everywhere in the world. When you actually look all the wars and death and suffering in the past few decades, we've had a hand in practically all of them.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    No we basically begged nato to take us under protection. There are many things people don't like in Eastern Europe about America but no one doubt Russia is the greater evil. Only Americans can afford self reflection and self criticism. There is no such thing in Russia and no one wants to live under baron robber regime, its objective reality. Some countries have been born to wrong geopolitical location and don't have much choice.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > That's a very naive take. No, it's factual. > They weren't russian colonies but they were within its sphere of influence A “sphere of influence” is a collection of peripheries of metropolitan state, a geographically compact set of colonies. Your explanation is self-contradictory. > Just like cuba, canada and the entire western hemisphere is within our sphere of influence. They... aren't. Yes, the US asserted something like that with the Monroe Doctrine in the 19th C, but it's not at all the case now. The US has many allies in the Western Hemisphere, some of who might reasonably be viewed as client states, but it definitely doesn't include Cuba or the whole hemisphere. > Do you know what would have lead to an invasion of canada? Canada's request to join the soviet union. Whataboutism is silliest when it has to rely on speculative assumptions about ridiculous counterfactuals. > The only shame is that we don't get to feel the pain of our actions If you really feel it is a shame that you don't get to feel the pain of the crisis in Ukraine, that's...easily fixable.

by qiskit 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Russia allowed NATO to gobble up country after country all the way to Russia's borders. NATO didn't gobble them up, they voluntarily joined, and they weren't Russian colonies such that it was a matter of Russia “letting” anyone do anything. Russia is the one that has been literally gobbling up (at least parts of, prior to the most recent attempt) neighboring cointries.

qiskit 5y ago
That's a very naive take. They weren't russian colonies but they were within its sphere of influence. Just like cuba, canada and the entire western hemisphere is within our sphere of influence. Do you know what would have lead to an invasion of canada? Canada's request to join the soviet union. Every major power has its sphere of influence and limits. The only shame is that we don't get to feel the pain of our actions. It will be ukrainians and eventually taiwanese who will feel the pain of our meddling. Just like in iraq, iran, syria, libya, etc. Hopefully that comes to an end sooner than later so we'll stop causing trouble everywhere in the world. When you actually look all the wars and death and suffering in the past few decades, we've had a hand in practically all of them.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  No we basically begged nato to take us under protection. There are many things people don't like in Eastern Europe about America but no one doubt Russia is the greater evil. Only Americans can afford self reflection and self criticism. There is no such thing in Russia and no one wants to live under baron robber regime, its objective reality. Some countries have been born to wrong geopolitical location and don't have much choice.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > That's a very naive take. No, it's factual. > They weren't russian colonies but they were within its sphere of influence A “sphere of influence” is a collection of peripheries of metropolitan state, a geographically compact set of colonies. Your explanation is self-contradictory. > Just like cuba, canada and the entire western hemisphere is within our sphere of influence. They... aren't. Yes, the US asserted something like that with the Monroe Doctrine in the 19th C, but it's not at all the case now. The US has many allies in the Western Hemisphere, some of who might reasonably be viewed as client states, but it definitely doesn't include Cuba or the whole hemisphere. > Do you know what would have lead to an invasion of canada? Canada's request to join the soviet union. Whataboutism is silliest when it has to rely on speculative assumptions about ridiculous counterfactuals. > The only shame is that we don't get to feel the pain of our actions If you really feel it is a shame that you don't get to feel the pain of the crisis in Ukraine, that's...easily fixable.