4 ms·

But there is legitimate reason to villify. I can't speak for Apple specifically, but many companies are no longer matching the CoL increases. Housing prices are

But there is legitimate reason to villify. I can't speak for Apple specifically, but many companies are no longer matching the CoL increases. Housing prices are steadily increasing, and so is rent. Many have to resort to longer commutes, buying cars, and such. All of these have detrimental effects to the environment, mental health or both. Pushing people back to the office with nothing else is incredibly tonedeaf to the current state and trend of the world. This despite many of them putting up the image they care about these things.

chipotle_coyote 5y ago
> I can't speak for Apple specifically, but many companies are no longer matching the CoL increases. Housing prices are steadily increasing, and so is rent. I can't help but wonder if this is the flip side to the Silicon Valley mantra of "if you want a raise, job hop," where hitting your four-year anniversary with the same company makes you an old-timer and gets people on HN asking you if you're stupid. (Hopefully more politely than that, but that's absolutely the subtext of some recent message threads I've seen.) If the expectation on the company side is that they shouldn't plan on on any engineering staff being there more than a few years, then maybe it tacitly selects for "give employees a big bonus and lots of perks and just don't worry about raises because there ain't nothin' you can do to keep 'em". And, of course, there's a chicken-or-egg aspect to that: did job-hopping become the norm because companies aren't giving them enough reason to stay, or vice-versa? When I moved out to Silicon Valley close to twenty years ago, I'd have placed the blame for that particular new normal on the companies, but after having read HN for the better part of the last decade, I'm considerably less certain of that.
- astrange 5y ago
  > I can't help but wonder if this is the flip side to the Silicon Valley mantra of "if you want a raise, job hop," where hitting your four-year anniversary with the same company makes you an old-timer and gets people on HN asking you if you're stupid. (Hopefully more politely than that, but that's absolutely the subtext of some recent message threads I've seen.) I think that comes from misreading stats. If a company has huge growth and hires a bunch of new people, the average lifespan of an employee will obviously go down. There's many well known Apple engineers (in OS software at least) who've been there for decades.
  - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
    Well, it comes from reading HN. :) That's clearly anecdotal, but if you're a regular reader you've surely come across the job-hopping advice here! I've seen "the way you get a raise is by switching companies" as advice over and over and over here, and I don't think it's just a small selection of malcontents I just keep running into. Companies whose primary business is hardware seem to be more likely to keep people around for longer periods of time -- Apple, Intel, Cisco, National Semiconductor back when they were a going concern. Software companies, though, particularly ones in Silicon Valley (or following a Silicon Valley ethos)? As someone who's going to hit their four-year anniversary at their current workplace in a week, I feel like the oddball.
    - kimixa 5y ago
      That's certainly true about hardware companies - the cycle of product inception to release is often large enough that if you followed the "advice" here you would never actually experience the full cycle. I work on software at a similar company - and it certainly seems to have a significantly higher "employment age" than people seem possible here - I've worked here for 4 years and still one of the "new" ones. Some of that I feel due to a good work/life balance (And decent enough pay :), and a culture I find to be pleasant (I worked with Apple employees for a while, for example, and still don't understand why people put up with the crap I saw when there's a healthy job market). But I wonder if there's something to be said for the work itself - people have been here for ages and still doing new things - one year you may be working on texture pipelines, the next a deep dive in ray tracing. Sure, they're kinda similar, but I feel it may be more rewarding than redesigning a perfectly good UI for the 5th time, or replacing whatever javascript framework you used to use with the "New Hotness".
thatfrenchguy 5y ago
I think what you mean is that "people who moved outside the bay area got more house for their money", but the reason they got paid so much in the first place is because housing is more expensive.
- BlargMcLarg 5y ago
  I did not. I specifically mentioned my lack of experience with Apple to signal experiences outside the bay area, or the US for that matter. In many countries, total comp has barely moved whereas housing has become way more expensive, even during COVID.
mission_failed 5y ago
There is also the argument that a staff of engineers wants real data to back up decisions and policy. "because mangers like to look over your shoulder" isn't a good reason
whack 5y ago
You may not like hearing this but if you're a white-collar worker earning 6 figures and guaranteed to continue earning 6 figures for the rest of your career, you aren't entitled to CoL increases. Your employer is not a villain nor are they morally culpable just because they've made a business decision around how much salary increases they want to give their already privileged employees. Or a business decision regarding their work-from-home policy. If you're not happy, leave and work for a company that better matches what you're looking for. I would be furious if my ex-employer was giving me bad references just because I wanted to work-from-home or asked for a higher salary. And I would similarly not go around vilifying my ex-employer just because they wanted to offer me a lower salary or have me in the office regularly.
- raydev 5y ago
  > I would be furious if my ex-employer was giving me bad references just because I wanted to work-from-home or asked for a higher salary. And I would similarly not go around vilifying my ex-employer just because they wanted to offer me a lower salary or have me in the office regularly. That's not similar at all. The employer has all the power and money, not the individual. If the individual did, they wouldn't need to work anymore.

chipotle_coyote 5y ago

> I can't speak for Apple specifically, but many companies are no longer matching the CoL increases. Housing prices are steadily increasing, and so is rent. I can't help but wonder if this is the flip side to the Silicon Valley mantra of "if you want a raise, job hop," where hitting your four-year anniversary with the same company makes you an old-timer and gets people on HN asking you if you're stupid. (Hopefully more politely than that, but that's absolutely the subtext of some recent message threads I've seen.) If the expectation on the company side is that they shouldn't plan on on any engineering staff being there more than a few years, then maybe it tacitly selects for "give employees a big bonus and lots of perks and just don't worry about raises because there ain't nothin' you can do to keep 'em". And, of course, there's a chicken-or-egg aspect to that: did job-hopping become the norm because companies aren't giving them enough reason to stay, or vice-versa? When I moved out to Silicon Valley close to twenty years ago, I'd have placed the blame for that particular new normal on the companies, but after having read HN for the better part of the last decade, I'm considerably less certain of that.

astrange 5y ago
> I can't help but wonder if this is the flip side to the Silicon Valley mantra of "if you want a raise, job hop," where hitting your four-year anniversary with the same company makes you an old-timer and gets people on HN asking you if you're stupid. (Hopefully more politely than that, but that's absolutely the subtext of some recent message threads I've seen.) I think that comes from misreading stats. If a company has huge growth and hires a bunch of new people, the average lifespan of an employee will obviously go down. There's many well known Apple engineers (in OS software at least) who've been there for decades.
- chipotle_coyote 5y ago
  Well, it comes from reading HN. :) That's clearly anecdotal, but if you're a regular reader you've surely come across the job-hopping advice here! I've seen "the way you get a raise is by switching companies" as advice over and over and over here, and I don't think it's just a small selection of malcontents I just keep running into. Companies whose primary business is hardware seem to be more likely to keep people around for longer periods of time -- Apple, Intel, Cisco, National Semiconductor back when they were a going concern. Software companies, though, particularly ones in Silicon Valley (or following a Silicon Valley ethos)? As someone who's going to hit their four-year anniversary at their current workplace in a week, I feel like the oddball.
  - kimixa 5y ago
    That's certainly true about hardware companies - the cycle of product inception to release is often large enough that if you followed the "advice" here you would never actually experience the full cycle. I work on software at a similar company - and it certainly seems to have a significantly higher "employment age" than people seem possible here - I've worked here for 4 years and still one of the "new" ones. Some of that I feel due to a good work/life balance (And decent enough pay :), and a culture I find to be pleasant (I worked with Apple employees for a while, for example, and still don't understand why people put up with the crap I saw when there's a healthy job market). But I wonder if there's something to be said for the work itself - people have been here for ages and still doing new things - one year you may be working on texture pipelines, the next a deep dive in ray tracing. Sure, they're kinda similar, but I feel it may be more rewarding than redesigning a perfectly good UI for the 5th time, or replacing whatever javascript framework you used to use with the "New Hotness".

thatfrenchguy 5y ago

I think what you mean is that "people who moved outside the bay area got more house for their money", but the reason they got paid so much in the first place is because housing is more expensive.

BlargMcLarg 5y ago
I did not. I specifically mentioned my lack of experience with Apple to signal experiences outside the bay area, or the US for that matter. In many countries, total comp has barely moved whereas housing has become way more expensive, even during COVID.

mission_failed 5y ago

There is also the argument that a staff of engineers wants real data to back up decisions and policy. "because mangers like to look over your shoulder" isn't a good reason

whack 5y ago

You may not like hearing this but if you're a white-collar worker earning 6 figures and guaranteed to continue earning 6 figures for the rest of your career, you aren't entitled to CoL increases. Your employer is not a villain nor are they morally culpable just because they've made a business decision around how much salary increases they want to give their already privileged employees. Or a business decision regarding their work-from-home policy. If you're not happy, leave and work for a company that better matches what you're looking for. I would be furious if my ex-employer was giving me bad references just because I wanted to work-from-home or asked for a higher salary. And I would similarly not go around vilifying my ex-employer just because they wanted to offer me a lower salary or have me in the office regularly.

raydev 5y ago
> I would be furious if my ex-employer was giving me bad references just because I wanted to work-from-home or asked for a higher salary. And I would similarly not go around vilifying my ex-employer just because they wanted to offer me a lower salary or have me in the office regularly. That's not similar at all. The employer has all the power and money, not the individual. If the individual did, they wouldn't need to work anymore.