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They're fighting because they are being attacked, and because Slavs are courageous and stubborn. But the West are not telling them to give up, to save civilian

They're fighting because they are being attacked, and because Slavs are courageous and stubborn. But the West are not telling them to give up, to save civilian lives. Instead they encourage them to keep fighting, delaying the inevitable. I don't know by how many days that will prolong the war, but it's reckless.

foogazi 5y ago
Does the West have anything to do with Slav courage? Do you think Ukrainians are incapable of deciding for themselves? Putin seems to think so
- Grustaf 5y ago
  As I wrote. Ukraine will obviously defend itself when attacked, with or without the West. And the West has been clear about not helping. But encouraging them to keep fighting, when it seems completely hopeless, is not doing them a service. Keyboard warriors in the US telling Ukrainian civilians to throw Molotov cocktails on tanks is especially infuriating.
jazzyjackson 5y ago
Imagine Biden telling Ukraine to lay down arms and capitulate to the Russian occupation, and we thought Trump acted like the Manchurian candidate ! I really can’t see into your mind, how is Putin not the reckless one here? He’s going on a military adventure that has kept the Russian stock market closed for a week.
- bushin 5y ago
  No need to imagine: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/europe/ukraine-zelensky-evacuation-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/europe/ukraine-zelensky-e...
- Grustaf 5y ago
  There can be more than one reckless party. Putin obviously started the war, and Russia will have suffered huge losses, not to mention the devastating human toll. But do you think Ukraine has a chance here? What is the purpose of fighting? It would only make sense if there was a chance of NATO or the EU stepping in to help them, but that seems to be ruled out.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    NATO absolutely has stepped in via intelligence and ammunition. Kyiv would not stand for as long as it has without this support. What is the purpose of fighting? Have you looked at Russia? ukrainians would like to remain free of totalitarianism and will die trying. They will not accept becoming a vassal state. What is the alternative to fighting? It is clear to me they have a chance, as Russia has failed to gain air supremacy and the conscripts keep defecting. [I admit I only see pro-Ukraine propaganda, but as long as they are transmitting this propaganda out of Kyiv they are winning]
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      > What is the purpose of fighting? Have you looked at Russia? ukrainians would like to remain free of totalitarianism and will die trying. They will not accept becoming a vassal state. What is the alternative to fighting? The point is that it seems completely hopeless without direct military help from the West. Looked at Russia, in what sense? I have lived there, so I know what life is like there, but I don't know the state of the military. Except that it's enormous, and only a fraction has been deployed so far. Why won't they accept becoming a vassal state, if the alternative is complete destruction? Or are they betting that Putin will back off before it's levelled to the ground. Perhaps he will, but I wouldn't bet on it, look at Chechnya. Clearly Putin thought the resistance would be weak and starting out they went to great lengths to spare civilians, but that has already started to give way. It's awful to think what will happen if this drags on.
      - jazzyjackson 5y ago
        > Looked at Russia, in what sense? I will respect that you know better than me, an American that would like to see the sights of Russia one day. In the sense that Putin murders/poisons his political opponents and journalists like Navalny & Politkovskaya, tortures and imprisons activists like Magnitsky and Nadya Tolokno. I can sympathize with anyone who would avoid a government responsible for such acts, granting that I'm ignorant of any Ukrainian equivelancies. To me, Ukraine has the hope of a European future of democratic rule and economic prosperity, unburdened by such kleptocracy as that which has deprived the Russian military of its competence. Really, I think Putin was told his forces on the border were topped off with food, fuel, and combat units hungry for conquest. He is sorely mistaken, and his troops are hungry, out of gas, and without purpose. Again, this is just what I see. A superpower that isn't. As the war drags on, Putin has to answer to his fellow oligarchs as much as anyone else, and Ukraine will continue to be supplied by Russia's enemies.
postingawayonhn 5y ago
There's nothing inevitable here. The Russian army is being show to be a joke right now. Ultimately there will have to be some sort of negotiated peace (Ukraine can't fight all the way to Moscow) but the more of the Russian Army they destroy and the longer they hold them off the better the terms they will get.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  Stop buying the narrative that the media is concocting.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
selfhoster11 5y ago
If you said something like that to a Polish person during early days of WW2, they would slap you in the face, or worse. You have no right to say something like that. If Ukrainians want to fight until the end, that is a choice they can make.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  I'm not saying they "can't make that choice". I'm saying it's a bad idea to make that choice. If Russia tried to invade Sweden, my home country, I would say the same. Resisting an overwhelming force might sound good on paper, but when it's your own country that is being laid waste to it's different. If Finland tried to invade, fighting back would be more attractive. The comparison with Poland and the Nazis is not an apt one. The Nazis despised Slavs, and life under German occupation would be terrible, WAS terrible. Unless you believe the craziest Western propaganda, you know that Russia has no plans to set up concentration camps, Russians consider Ukraine a brother, not a lesser form of human. If Ukraine waves the white flag Putin will most likely install a loyal government, peel off DNR and LNR, keep Crimea, establish some Russian military bases and then leave. Life in Ukraine as a Russian vassal state would be nothing like life as a Pole under Nazi Germany, it's not a reasonable comparison. It would be more like living in Belarus. That's not amazing, but it's better than total destruction.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    But, the media told me that Putin is Hitler reincarnated.

foogazi 5y ago

Does the West have anything to do with Slav courage? Do you think Ukrainians are incapable of deciding for themselves? Putin seems to think so

Grustaf 5y ago
As I wrote. Ukraine will obviously defend itself when attacked, with or without the West. And the West has been clear about not helping. But encouraging them to keep fighting, when it seems completely hopeless, is not doing them a service. Keyboard warriors in the US telling Ukrainian civilians to throw Molotov cocktails on tanks is especially infuriating.

jazzyjackson 5y ago

Imagine Biden telling Ukraine to lay down arms and capitulate to the Russian occupation, and we thought Trump acted like the Manchurian candidate ! I really can’t see into your mind, how is Putin not the reckless one here? He’s going on a military adventure that has kept the Russian stock market closed for a week.

bushin 5y ago
No need to imagine: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/europe/ukraine-zelensky-evacuation-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/europe/ukraine-zelensky-e...
Grustaf 5y ago
There can be more than one reckless party. Putin obviously started the war, and Russia will have suffered huge losses, not to mention the devastating human toll. But do you think Ukraine has a chance here? What is the purpose of fighting? It would only make sense if there was a chance of NATO or the EU stepping in to help them, but that seems to be ruled out.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  NATO absolutely has stepped in via intelligence and ammunition. Kyiv would not stand for as long as it has without this support. What is the purpose of fighting? Have you looked at Russia? ukrainians would like to remain free of totalitarianism and will die trying. They will not accept becoming a vassal state. What is the alternative to fighting? It is clear to me they have a chance, as Russia has failed to gain air supremacy and the conscripts keep defecting. [I admit I only see pro-Ukraine propaganda, but as long as they are transmitting this propaganda out of Kyiv they are winning]
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    > What is the purpose of fighting? Have you looked at Russia? ukrainians would like to remain free of totalitarianism and will die trying. They will not accept becoming a vassal state. What is the alternative to fighting? The point is that it seems completely hopeless without direct military help from the West. Looked at Russia, in what sense? I have lived there, so I know what life is like there, but I don't know the state of the military. Except that it's enormous, and only a fraction has been deployed so far. Why won't they accept becoming a vassal state, if the alternative is complete destruction? Or are they betting that Putin will back off before it's levelled to the ground. Perhaps he will, but I wouldn't bet on it, look at Chechnya. Clearly Putin thought the resistance would be weak and starting out they went to great lengths to spare civilians, but that has already started to give way. It's awful to think what will happen if this drags on.
    - jazzyjackson 5y ago
      > Looked at Russia, in what sense? I will respect that you know better than me, an American that would like to see the sights of Russia one day. In the sense that Putin murders/poisons his political opponents and journalists like Navalny & Politkovskaya, tortures and imprisons activists like Magnitsky and Nadya Tolokno. I can sympathize with anyone who would avoid a government responsible for such acts, granting that I'm ignorant of any Ukrainian equivelancies. To me, Ukraine has the hope of a European future of democratic rule and economic prosperity, unburdened by such kleptocracy as that which has deprived the Russian military of its competence. Really, I think Putin was told his forces on the border were topped off with food, fuel, and combat units hungry for conquest. He is sorely mistaken, and his troops are hungry, out of gas, and without purpose. Again, this is just what I see. A superpower that isn't. As the war drags on, Putin has to answer to his fellow oligarchs as much as anyone else, and Ukraine will continue to be supplied by Russia's enemies.

postingawayonhn 5y ago

There's nothing inevitable here. The Russian army is being show to be a joke right now. Ultimately there will have to be some sort of negotiated peace (Ukraine can't fight all the way to Moscow) but the more of the Russian Army they destroy and the longer they hold them off the better the terms they will get.

warner_of_doom 5y ago
Stop buying the narrative that the media is concocting.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

selfhoster11 5y ago

If you said something like that to a Polish person during early days of WW2, they would slap you in the face, or worse. You have no right to say something like that. If Ukrainians want to fight until the end, that is a choice they can make.

Grustaf 5y ago
I'm not saying they "can't make that choice". I'm saying it's a bad idea to make that choice. If Russia tried to invade Sweden, my home country, I would say the same. Resisting an overwhelming force might sound good on paper, but when it's your own country that is being laid waste to it's different. If Finland tried to invade, fighting back would be more attractive. The comparison with Poland and the Nazis is not an apt one. The Nazis despised Slavs, and life under German occupation would be terrible, WAS terrible. Unless you believe the craziest Western propaganda, you know that Russia has no plans to set up concentration camps, Russians consider Ukraine a brother, not a lesser form of human. If Ukraine waves the white flag Putin will most likely install a loyal government, peel off DNR and LNR, keep Crimea, establish some Russian military bases and then leave. Life in Ukraine as a Russian vassal state would be nothing like life as a Pole under Nazi Germany, it's not a reasonable comparison. It would be more like living in Belarus. That's not amazing, but it's better than total destruction.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  But, the media told me that Putin is Hitler reincarnated.