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The propaganda onslaught is unparalleled. Ukraine is painted as heaven on Earth, a beacon of democracy. McFaul even suggested that Putin essentially "hated Ukra

The propaganda onslaught is unparalleled. Ukraine is painted as heaven on Earth, a beacon of democracy. McFaul even suggested that Putin essentially "hated Ukraine because it was free". In reality Ukraine is even more corrupt than Russia, their economy is in terrible shape, despite having more natural resources than most, and a diligent educated population. GDP per capita is a third of Russia's, lower than Belarus! The elites, including Zelensky, are incredibly corrupt. I love Ukraine, only had wonderful experiences there, but it's getting ridiculous.

teachrdan 5y ago
Does Ukraine kill journalists who criticize their government? Does it send assassins who murder political dissidents abroad with polonium? Do they imprison and torture people for being queer? It seems your argument that Ukraine is corrupt and poor creates a false equivalence with Russia. It seems to me that Russia under Putin is far, far worse.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... Zelenskyy is corrupt as they get. Don't buy the SM propaganda.
  - tim333 5y ago
    Your article seems to be "Congress Has Removed a Ban on Funding Neo-Nazis" and not much about Zelensky being corrupt.
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      This is just the tip of the iceberg: * https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukraine-leader-seeks-to-justify-offshore-accounts https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukra... * https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-r... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg
- Grustaf 5y ago
  There is definitely less violent repression of journalists in Ukraine. But the corruption is worse, and the economy is doing very badly, it's the poorest country in Europe, despite fantastic conditions. I'm obviously not saying it's OK to invade a country just because it's corrupt, and that's obviously not the reason. I'm only talking about the absurd apotheosis of the corrupt Zelensky and the crazy idea that Ukraine is some kind of democratic paradise.
  - lxm 5y ago
    > the corruption is worse Source? You keep repeating that, but Transparency International ranked Ukraine above Russia https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 You are correct on the poverty numbers if the peer group is “rest of Europe”, not “rest of USSR alumni”. Is it a reasonable peer group?
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      If you listen to Western media, Ukraine is just another democratic European country. Most Americans probably imagine that it's something like the Czech republic, when in fact it's 50% poorer than Belarus. By the way here's an article about Zelensky written 2 weeks ago, so about 1 week before his apotheosis: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/opinion/ukraine-russia-zelensky-putin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/opinion/ukraine-russia-ze... About corruption being worse, that's mostly anecdotal. I have friends running parts of, or working for major corporations in Russia and Ukraine. But also, look at the amazing wealth of natural resources in Ukraine and compare it to the GDP.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rektide 5y ago
  Euromaidan (Nov 2013, leading to the Revolution of Dignity, Feb 2014) seems to be one of the main things that pissed Russia off, that made them fear for their national security. Here's the people of Ukraine, showing hope & trying to cast off the corruption, unwilling to simply swallow the long dark agenda their leaders are pushing them towards. Amazing. Having hope & democracy & people getting better is an existential threat to a nearby country that rules via corruption & force. Ukraine has improved slowly, moved up in the ranks of corrupt countries, passed Russia (now #122 vs Russia' #136 in the Corruption Perception Index, https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 ). The model of people being free to speak up against the bad is a primary threat, and happening too close to Russia for them to bear it. As FP put in the Dec 2021 subheading, > The country’s democratization and ongoing efforts to fight entrenched graft and cronyism are a threat to Putin’s model of governance. https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/17/ukraine-russia-corruption-putin-democracy-oligarchs/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/17/ukraine-russia-corrupti...
  - tim333 5y ago
    >made them fear for their national security I think Putin and friends are more worried about Putin and friends being overthrown. The Russian national security would be fine. Putin on the other hand has killed so many people that he can't allow a democratic takeover without going to jail.
- igotyoufam 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_murdered_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_murdered_i...
KptMarchewa 5y ago
Ukraine is a free country, not Russian vassal state only for 8 years, during which of has been sabotaged by Russia by the war in Donbass.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia?s=r https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia...

teachrdan 5y ago

Does Ukraine kill journalists who criticize their government? Does it send assassins who murder political dissidents abroad with polonium? Do they imprison and torture people for being queer? It seems your argument that Ukraine is corrupt and poor creates a false equivalence with Russia. It seems to me that Russia under Putin is far, far worse.

warner_of_doom 5y ago
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... Zelenskyy is corrupt as they get. Don't buy the SM propaganda.
- tim333 5y ago
  Your article seems to be "Congress Has Removed a Ban on Funding Neo-Nazis" and not much about Zelensky being corrupt.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    This is just the tip of the iceberg: * https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukraine-leader-seeks-to-justify-offshore-accounts https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukra... * https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-r... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg
Grustaf 5y ago
There is definitely less violent repression of journalists in Ukraine. But the corruption is worse, and the economy is doing very badly, it's the poorest country in Europe, despite fantastic conditions. I'm obviously not saying it's OK to invade a country just because it's corrupt, and that's obviously not the reason. I'm only talking about the absurd apotheosis of the corrupt Zelensky and the crazy idea that Ukraine is some kind of democratic paradise.
- lxm 5y ago
  > the corruption is worse Source? You keep repeating that, but Transparency International ranked Ukraine above Russia https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 You are correct on the poverty numbers if the peer group is “rest of Europe”, not “rest of USSR alumni”. Is it a reasonable peer group?
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    If you listen to Western media, Ukraine is just another democratic European country. Most Americans probably imagine that it's something like the Czech republic, when in fact it's 50% poorer than Belarus. By the way here's an article about Zelensky written 2 weeks ago, so about 1 week before his apotheosis: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/opinion/ukraine-russia-zelensky-putin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/opinion/ukraine-russia-ze... About corruption being worse, that's mostly anecdotal. I have friends running parts of, or working for major corporations in Russia and Ukraine. But also, look at the amazing wealth of natural resources in Ukraine and compare it to the GDP.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rektide 5y ago
Euromaidan (Nov 2013, leading to the Revolution of Dignity, Feb 2014) seems to be one of the main things that pissed Russia off, that made them fear for their national security. Here's the people of Ukraine, showing hope & trying to cast off the corruption, unwilling to simply swallow the long dark agenda their leaders are pushing them towards. Amazing. Having hope & democracy & people getting better is an existential threat to a nearby country that rules via corruption & force. Ukraine has improved slowly, moved up in the ranks of corrupt countries, passed Russia (now #122 vs Russia' #136 in the Corruption Perception Index, https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 ). The model of people being free to speak up against the bad is a primary threat, and happening too close to Russia for them to bear it. As FP put in the Dec 2021 subheading, > The country’s democratization and ongoing efforts to fight entrenched graft and cronyism are a threat to Putin’s model of governance. https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/17/ukraine-russia-corruption-putin-democracy-oligarchs/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/17/ukraine-russia-corrupti...
- tim333 5y ago
  >made them fear for their national security I think Putin and friends are more worried about Putin and friends being overthrown. The Russian national security would be fine. Putin on the other hand has killed so many people that he can't allow a democratic takeover without going to jail.
igotyoufam 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_murdered_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_murdered_i...

KptMarchewa 5y ago

Ukraine is a free country, not Russian vassal state only for 8 years, during which of has been sabotaged by Russia by the war in Donbass.

warner_of_doom 5y ago
https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia?s=r https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia...