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I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think th

I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason. For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0 moment. The United States should have clearly recognized that trying to get Ukraine into NATO or even the EU was clearly going to make the Russians think they're being backed into a corner security-wise. We could have just as easily kept trading with Ukraine and cooperating without starting the process to join NATO.

warner_of_doom 5y ago
> turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types Manufactured consent.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  This kind of sharp ideological turn is typical for outbreak of wars. From what I have read, both the 1870 Prussian-French war and the outbreak of WWI in 1914 were followed by huge outpouring of militarist attitudes, even though there wasn't even radio (much less TV or Internet) and most common people didn't read newspapers, or rarely so. We seem to have a collective subroutine for turning into murderous apes in our societal firmware. It was probably adaptive once. It may not be as adaptive in the nuclear age.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, don’t think I need to watch CNN or read the New York Times to take Ukraine’s side on this one. The international condemnation and lock step sanctions, is that the media’s doing? Or is it the consequence of Russia being the aggressor? I agree with my sibling, opinions tend to stiffen up when war breaks out, with or without the radio.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo...
  - cuteboy19 5y ago
    It is important to remember that Chomsky has repeatedly supported actual genocides so long as the person committing the genocides was anti western in some way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      Dude. This is just not true. He didn't deny genocide. There are many reasons not to like Chomsky. I don't like him as of late. But, genocide-denial isn't one of them.
      - cuteboy19 5y ago
        You can literally read it. He denied the genocide while it was going on. He later gave a notpology but that doesnt change that he denied it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial#Chomsky_and_Herman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial#Chom...
        warner_of_doom 5y ago
        Where in that does he deny it? LOL. Agenda much?
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    Have you looked into what started this crisis in 2014?
    - tim333 5y ago
Grustaf 5y ago
The propaganda onslaught is unparalleled. Ukraine is painted as heaven on Earth, a beacon of democracy. McFaul even suggested that Putin essentially "hated Ukraine because it was free". In reality Ukraine is even more corrupt than Russia, their economy is in terrible shape, despite having more natural resources than most, and a diligent educated population. GDP per capita is a third of Russia's, lower than Belarus! The elites, including Zelensky, are incredibly corrupt. I love Ukraine, only had wonderful experiences there, but it's getting ridiculous.
- teachrdan 5y ago
  Does Ukraine kill journalists who criticize their government? Does it send assassins who murder political dissidents abroad with polonium? Do they imprison and torture people for being queer? It seems your argument that Ukraine is corrupt and poor creates a false equivalence with Russia. It seems to me that Russia under Putin is far, far worse.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... Zelenskyy is corrupt as they get. Don't buy the SM propaganda.
    - tim333 5y ago
      Your article seems to be "Congress Has Removed a Ban on Funding Neo-Nazis" and not much about Zelensky being corrupt.
      - warner_of_doom 5y ago
        This is just the tip of the iceberg: * https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukraine-leader-seeks-to-justify-offshore-accounts https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukra... * https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-r... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg
dictum 5y ago
> friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
TMWNN 5y ago
>But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0 moment. There was no hope of Ukraine joining NATO without the resolving of the Crimea/eastern Ukraine territories. In other words, not in the foreseeable future. Same with the EU, in practice. Even if Ukraine were to a) resolve the territorial issues and b) convince the rest of NATO (any one member country being able to veto accession), this would not have brought NATO to the Russian border; Norway was a founding NATO member in 1949, and Poland and the Baltic states joined 15 years ago.
TheCoelacanth 5y ago
No shit. Russia just launched an unprovoked attack on another country. That's about the farthest from "just getting along" that you can get. Is it any wonder that people who like peace get mad when countries start wars?
- landemva 5y ago
  Which people like peace? Modern USA two decades in Afghanistan?
  - MrYellowP 5y ago
    Hey, you're being unfair! Don't forget Iraq, Lybia, Syria and the others! The US is all about peace, how could you forget??
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    People exist in the West outside the USA, you know. They also have their own agency and a fear of Russia annexing their countries thanks to the close proximity to the current conflict.

warner_of_doom 5y ago

> turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types Manufactured consent.

inglor_cz 5y ago
This kind of sharp ideological turn is typical for outbreak of wars. From what I have read, both the 1870 Prussian-French war and the outbreak of WWI in 1914 were followed by huge outpouring of militarist attitudes, even though there wasn't even radio (much less TV or Internet) and most common people didn't read newspapers, or rarely so. We seem to have a collective subroutine for turning into murderous apes in our societal firmware. It was probably adaptive once. It may not be as adaptive in the nuclear age.
jazzyjackson 5y ago
I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, don’t think I need to watch CNN or read the New York Times to take Ukraine’s side on this one. The international condemnation and lock step sanctions, is that the media’s doing? Or is it the consequence of Russia being the aggressor? I agree with my sibling, opinions tend to stiffen up when war breaks out, with or without the radio.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo...
- cuteboy19 5y ago
  It is important to remember that Chomsky has repeatedly supported actual genocides so long as the person committing the genocides was anti western in some way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    Dude. This is just not true. He didn't deny genocide. There are many reasons not to like Chomsky. I don't like him as of late. But, genocide-denial isn't one of them.
    - cuteboy19 5y ago
      You can literally read it. He denied the genocide while it was going on. He later gave a notpology but that doesnt change that he denied it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial#Chomsky_and_Herman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial#Chom...
      - warner_of_doom 5y ago
        Where in that does he deny it? LOL. Agenda much?
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  Have you looked into what started this crisis in 2014?
  - tim333 5y ago

Grustaf 5y ago

The propaganda onslaught is unparalleled. Ukraine is painted as heaven on Earth, a beacon of democracy. McFaul even suggested that Putin essentially "hated Ukraine because it was free". In reality Ukraine is even more corrupt than Russia, their economy is in terrible shape, despite having more natural resources than most, and a diligent educated population. GDP per capita is a third of Russia's, lower than Belarus! The elites, including Zelensky, are incredibly corrupt. I love Ukraine, only had wonderful experiences there, but it's getting ridiculous.

teachrdan 5y ago
Does Ukraine kill journalists who criticize their government? Does it send assassins who murder political dissidents abroad with polonium? Do they imprison and torture people for being queer? It seems your argument that Ukraine is corrupt and poor creates a false equivalence with Russia. It seems to me that Russia under Putin is far, far worse.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... Zelenskyy is corrupt as they get. Don't buy the SM propaganda.
  - tim333 5y ago
    Your article seems to be "Congress Has Removed a Ban on Funding Neo-Nazis" and not much about Zelensky being corrupt.
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      This is just the tip of the iceberg: * https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukraine-leader-seeks-to-justify-offshore-accounts https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukra... * https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-r... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg

dictum 5y ago

> friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

TMWNN 5y ago

>But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0 moment. There was no hope of Ukraine joining NATO without the resolving of the Crimea/eastern Ukraine territories. In other words, not in the foreseeable future. Same with the EU, in practice. Even if Ukraine were to a) resolve the territorial issues and b) convince the rest of NATO (any one member country being able to veto accession), this would not have brought NATO to the Russian border; Norway was a founding NATO member in 1949, and Poland and the Baltic states joined 15 years ago.

TheCoelacanth 5y ago

No shit. Russia just launched an unprovoked attack on another country. That's about the farthest from "just getting along" that you can get. Is it any wonder that people who like peace get mad when countries start wars?

landemva 5y ago
Which people like peace? Modern USA two decades in Afghanistan?
- MrYellowP 5y ago
  Hey, you're being unfair! Don't forget Iraq, Lybia, Syria and the others! The US is all about peace, how could you forget??
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  People exist in the West outside the USA, you know. They also have their own agency and a fear of Russia annexing their countries thanks to the close proximity to the current conflict.