4 ms·

There's a ted talk out there that supposed that people who develop als all spent time in forests/streams.

by dmead 5y ago

manmal 5y ago
Weirdly, professional soccer players are disproportionately affected, while eg road cyclists are not: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19267274/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19267274/ Football players also have a 4x increased risk: https://tulsaworld.com/lifestyles/ask-the-doctor-pro-football-players-more-likely-to-develop-als/article_f70a8f66-f8a6-52bf-b51a-71a725537148.html https://tulsaworld.com/lifestyles/ask-the-doctor-pro-footbal... But basketball players don’t - go figure. Stephen Hawkins spent ca 1000h on boats during his college years (interesting since you mentioned that streams might bear some trigger)
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  The commonality between those effected may be the causative factor. If that same commonality is missing from those less effected it's even more supporting evidence. In the set you presented. The only people who have increased risk of ALS are those that play sports on grass fields. Maybe that's the key? Grass.
  - alfon 5y ago
    "Ticks love to be in moist, low grass, so a lot of games, whether it's football, baseball, tend to happen in the morning. There may be dew on the grass and that's where a lot of ticks survive and hang out," Nesheiwat said. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ticks-lyme-disease-cdc-putnam-county/ https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ticks-lyme-disease-cdc-... Lots of anecdotal evidence of ALS developing after tick bites, or more concretely infection with Borrelia Burgdorferi. Probably a genetic component, and other enviromental factors are also involved, but the only dramatic reversals of MND I have seen documented (or heard about) have been either with IV antibiotics [1][3], or years of Mercury chelation [2] [1] https://invisibledisabilities.org/award-recipients/2011awards/2011-research-award-david-martz-md/ https://invisibledisabilities.org/award-recipients/2011award... [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17212618/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17212618/ [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317849075_Healing_of_Amyotrophic_Lateral_Sclerosis_A_Case_Report https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317849075_Healing_o... In the recent book "Chronic" by Dr. Stephen Philips, he's frustrated since he can only treat successfully (outcome similar to Dr. Martz), with antibiotics, about 15% of his ALS-like patients. Considering how uniformly fatal ALS diagnosis is otherwise, even considering how skewed of a sample he might get (patients that already know they are Lyme positive or suspect it), still find it astonishing.
    - manmal 5y ago
      Thanks for those links! Re antibiotics, do those end up in the spinal fluid and brain in „useful“ amounts?
      - alfon 5y ago
        Depends on the antibiotic. I believe their molecular mass has to be lower than around 500 Da for them to reliably cross the blood brain barrier. It also depend whether meningeal inflammation is present or not
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  I wonder if it correlates with head trauma? Soccer players head the ball, and American football players famously get lots of concussions. But I assume not basketball players or bikers.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    I believe the eyes are a vector for prion diseases, at least some. Possibly infection when being looked at for a head injury, but I assume they take decent precautions. Another user proposed grass was the commonality between those sports, in that case grass/dirt entering the eyes? For forest/streams, possibly water/dirt entering the eyes? Doesn't really narrow much down though, avoid all dirt, grass, and water.
    - manmal 5y ago
      I‘m not sure I‘m buying the prion theory. Shouldn’t numbers decrease as people go outside ever less often? Prevalence of ALS seems to be increasing though: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC6735526/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC6735526/ I think the Borrelia Burgdorfferi hypothesis would fit better, with Lyme disease numbers climbing in recent decades.
  - jessriedel 5y ago
    Yes, naively the connection looks like head impacts. The high rate of concussions in soccer is not widely appreciated, despite being over half the rate of American football (about which a lot more has been written). https://storelli.com/blogs/the-storelli-blog/soccer-concussion-rates-vs-other-sports#:~:text=A%20total%20of%202651%20concussions,rate%20of%200.24%20per%201000 https://storelli.com/blogs/the-storelli-blog/soccer-concussi.... https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/2001/10000/Concussions_Among_University_Football_and_Soccer.5.aspx https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/2001/10000/Con... From the first link, here is the ranking of concussion rate: 1. Rugby (4.18/1,000 AE) 2. Ice hockey (1.20/1,000 AE) 3. American football (0.53/1,000 AE) 4. Lacrosse (0.24/1,000 AE) 5. Soccer (0.23/1,000 AE) 6. Wrestling (0.17/1,000 AE) 7. Basketball (0.13/1,000 AE) 8. Softball & field hockey (0.10/1,000 AE) 9. Baseball (0.016/1,000 AE) 10. Cheerleading (0.07/1,000 AE) 11. Volleyball (0.03/1,000 AE) > Athletic Exposure (AE) is defined as one athlete participating in one game or practice.
- alfon 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9FdULDV6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9FdULDV6M https://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3647&fbclid=IwAR3d9FTXr43bnWIaBoggAJfOXv8r8HKwAD3ppgmQkUZKM1tYfbVEMWwfhqI https://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3647&fbc... Who knows..
- londons_explore 5y ago
  Cause and effect may be reversed... Maybe in the very early stages of ALS, motor coordination skills are worse, making one not be as good a footballer, so you decide to take up a career as an accountant instead, who cycles at the weekends.
  - manmal 5y ago
    True, but that should affect basket players too, who don’t seem to be specifically predisposed to ALS.
rindalir 5y ago
That would be ... scary for me. The closest I could find was some limited evidence of an association between cyanobacteria blooms and odds of ALS in the surround population: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5727154/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5727154/
steve76 5y ago
HellsMaddy 5y ago
Can you provide a link? I’m having trouble finding it.
- dmead 5y ago
  I believe this is it. here ya go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWi6WQQ9wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWi6WQQ9wo

There's a ted talk out there that supposed that people who develop als all spent time in forests/streams.

by dmead 5y ago

There's a ted talk out there that supposed that people who develop als all spent time in forests/streams.

Weirdly, professional soccer players are disproportionately affected, while eg road cyclists are not: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19267274/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19267274/ Football players also have a 4x increased risk: https://tulsaworld.com/lifestyles/ask-the-doctor-pro-football-players-more-likely-to-develop-als/article_f70a8f66-f8a6-52bf-b51a-71a725537148.html https://tulsaworld.com/lifestyles/ask-the-doctor-pro-footbal... But basketball players don’t - go figure. Stephen Hawkins spent ca 1000h on boats during his college years (interesting since you mentioned that streams might bear some trigger)

deltaonefour 5y ago
The commonality between those effected may be the causative factor. If that same commonality is missing from those less effected it's even more supporting evidence. In the set you presented. The only people who have increased risk of ALS are those that play sports on grass fields. Maybe that's the key? Grass.
- alfon 5y ago
  "Ticks love to be in moist, low grass, so a lot of games, whether it's football, baseball, tend to happen in the morning. There may be dew on the grass and that's where a lot of ticks survive and hang out," Nesheiwat said. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ticks-lyme-disease-cdc-putnam-county/ https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ticks-lyme-disease-cdc-... Lots of anecdotal evidence of ALS developing after tick bites, or more concretely infection with Borrelia Burgdorferi. Probably a genetic component, and other enviromental factors are also involved, but the only dramatic reversals of MND I have seen documented (or heard about) have been either with IV antibiotics [1][3], or years of Mercury chelation [2] [1] https://invisibledisabilities.org/award-recipients/2011awards/2011-research-award-david-martz-md/ https://invisibledisabilities.org/award-recipients/2011award... [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17212618/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17212618/ [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317849075_Healing_of_Amyotrophic_Lateral_Sclerosis_A_Case_Report https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317849075_Healing_o... In the recent book "Chronic" by Dr. Stephen Philips, he's frustrated since he can only treat successfully (outcome similar to Dr. Martz), with antibiotics, about 15% of his ALS-like patients. Considering how uniformly fatal ALS diagnosis is otherwise, even considering how skewed of a sample he might get (patients that already know they are Lyme positive or suspect it), still find it astonishing.
  - manmal 5y ago
    Thanks for those links! Re antibiotics, do those end up in the spinal fluid and brain in „useful“ amounts?
    - alfon 5y ago
      Depends on the antibiotic. I believe their molecular mass has to be lower than around 500 Da for them to reliably cross the blood brain barrier. It also depend whether meningeal inflammation is present or not
CoastalCoder 5y ago
I wonder if it correlates with head trauma? Soccer players head the ball, and American football players famously get lots of concussions. But I assume not basketball players or bikers.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  I believe the eyes are a vector for prion diseases, at least some. Possibly infection when being looked at for a head injury, but I assume they take decent precautions. Another user proposed grass was the commonality between those sports, in that case grass/dirt entering the eyes? For forest/streams, possibly water/dirt entering the eyes? Doesn't really narrow much down though, avoid all dirt, grass, and water.
  - manmal 5y ago
    I‘m not sure I‘m buying the prion theory. Shouldn’t numbers decrease as people go outside ever less often? Prevalence of ALS seems to be increasing though: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC6735526/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC6735526/ I think the Borrelia Burgdorfferi hypothesis would fit better, with Lyme disease numbers climbing in recent decades.
- jessriedel 5y ago
  Yes, naively the connection looks like head impacts. The high rate of concussions in soccer is not widely appreciated, despite being over half the rate of American football (about which a lot more has been written). https://storelli.com/blogs/the-storelli-blog/soccer-concussion-rates-vs-other-sports#:~:text=A%20total%20of%202651%20concussions,rate%20of%200.24%20per%201000 https://storelli.com/blogs/the-storelli-blog/soccer-concussi.... https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/2001/10000/Concussions_Among_University_Football_and_Soccer.5.aspx https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed/Abstract/2001/10000/Con... From the first link, here is the ranking of concussion rate: 1. Rugby (4.18/1,000 AE) 2. Ice hockey (1.20/1,000 AE) 3. American football (0.53/1,000 AE) 4. Lacrosse (0.24/1,000 AE) 5. Soccer (0.23/1,000 AE) 6. Wrestling (0.17/1,000 AE) 7. Basketball (0.13/1,000 AE) 8. Softball & field hockey (0.10/1,000 AE) 9. Baseball (0.016/1,000 AE) 10. Cheerleading (0.07/1,000 AE) 11. Volleyball (0.03/1,000 AE) > Athletic Exposure (AE) is defined as one athlete participating in one game or practice.
alfon 5y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9FdULDV6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9FdULDV6M https://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3647&fbclid=IwAR3d9FTXr43bnWIaBoggAJfOXv8r8HKwAD3ppgmQkUZKM1tYfbVEMWwfhqI https://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3647&fbc... Who knows..
londons_explore 5y ago
Cause and effect may be reversed... Maybe in the very early stages of ALS, motor coordination skills are worse, making one not be as good a footballer, so you decide to take up a career as an accountant instead, who cycles at the weekends.
- manmal 5y ago
  True, but that should affect basket players too, who don’t seem to be specifically predisposed to ALS.

rindalir 5y ago

That would be ... scary for me. The closest I could find was some limited evidence of an association between cyanobacteria blooms and odds of ALS in the surround population: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5727154/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5727154/

steve76 5y ago

HellsMaddy 5y ago

Can you provide a link? I’m having trouble finding it.

dmead 5y ago
I believe this is it. here ya go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWi6WQQ9wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWi6WQQ9wo