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Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banni

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezinski, George Friedman, Peter Zeihan, George Kennan, Noam Chomsky, Peter Hitchens, Gonzalo Lira, Tim Marshall, Robert D Kaplan, etc., etc. to gain some insight into the other and more complex side of this story. Their books are a good and quick read. I am a proud American -- but, I am convinced that my country started this entire episode and planned to have it be so for a long, long time. 9/11, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc. just got in their way. Instead of drawing a rational meet-me-in-the-middle red-line with Russia (ex: Poland and the Baltics) that we could live with, we decided to take Ukraine for this ride. We did that. We encouraged Zelensky to talk about acquiring nukes, grabbing Crimea back, grabbing Luhansk and Donestk, joining NATO and the EU, etc. -- instead of encouraging Austria-like neutrality, we promoted our-way-or-the-highway. And now what are we doing? Fighting to the last Ukrainian? Fighting until they lose even more in a country that has lost ~20% of its population from its peak? We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. This. is. just. wrong!

ceilingcorner 5y ago
I have studied this situation nonstop for the last week and I pretty much have the same opinion as you. If you ask a simple question, Cui bono? (Who benefits?) it becomes clear that it’s ultimately another military industrial complex project. The sad part is that the only real victims here are the Ukrainian people, who were led along with false promises. Had NATO been wiser, none of this would be happening.
- georgia_peach 5y ago
  I think military-industrial complex gets its pound of flesh rain or shine. Westerners like their high-paying defense jobs. This is about bringing the entire world, state-by-state, under anglosphere concepts of law/property/morality/etc--but instead of subordinating Indians and Africans, it's Slavs this time.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  This is also playing right into NATO's hands in a way. But, after reading the authors I mentioned closely, I now realize that this is a war for control/negative-control over natural resources (grain, oil, gas, fertilizers, etc.). Also, this is about geostrategic security (anchoring at the Carpathian mountains and Bessarabia Gap). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CNeDtZmpjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CNeDtZmpjU And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE
  - thraneh 5y ago
    This has helped me better understand the strategic significance. Thank you. Edit: As a seeker of answers to the "why", I can't recommend these links enough.
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      Same here, I too seek out the motive behind actions; otherwise, history is the most boring and unintelligible sequence of events known to man. I recommend you look into these authors/commentators/analysts: * John Mearsheimer * Noam Chomsky * Vladimir Pozner * Jeffrey Sachs * Zbigniew Brezinski * George Friedman * Peter Zeihan * Peter Hitchens * Gonzalo Lira * Tim Marshall * Robert D Kaplan * Jack F. Matlock Jr * George Kennan * Stephen Cohen * Henry Kissinger Indeed. NATO/EU expansion is essentially a slow-moving replay of Brest-Litovsk and Barbarossa from the Russian point-of-view. I'm an American but I totally understand why Russia just did what it did. Never forget that Lenin was sent to Russia BY GERMANY for the express purpose of destabilizing Russia during WW1. This is the type of destabilizing regime-change that Russia fears. Their fears are not unfounded if you pay close attention to what the US has done in Ukraine, which is something our media doesn't even cover. This is just the tip of the iceberg: * https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukraine-leader-seeks-to-justify-offshore-accounts https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukra... * https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-r... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg
- calyth2018 5y ago
  These would be of interest for you: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16117-document-06-record-conversation-between https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16117-document-06-record-... https://archive.ph/gnqkv https://archive.ph/gnqkv - among the signers who opposed the NATO expansion during the late 90s to include the Visegrad group, Former SoD MacNamara https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300259933/not-one-inch https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300259933/not-one-inch Fog of War (Errol Morris documentary) - rather telling in there is empathy for your adversary, and the fact that there's so many parallels with the Cuban Missile Crisis. Seems like we've learnt nothing from it.
  - owenversteeg 5y ago
    Quite the list of signatories, including C. William Maynes (editor of Foreign Policy magazine), Sen. Bill Bradley, Raymond Garthoff (former ambassador to Bulgaria), Morton Halperin (former ACLU director), Sen. Gary Hart, Arthur Hartman (Reagan's ambassador to the Soviet Union), Sen. Mark Hatfield, Sen. Gordon Humphrey, Fred Ikle (the man who proposed sending weapons to the Mujahideen), Sen. Bennett Johnston, James Leonard (ambassador to the UN), former Secretary of the Navy Paul H. Nitze, former Secretary of Defense McNamara, Sen. Sam Nunn, Ambassador to East Germany Herbert S. Okun, commander of US Air Force Japan Robert E. Pursley, CIA Director Stansfield Turner, plus a list of everything from well-known professors to Purple Heart recipients. In other words - left and right, ACLU and Senators, academia and veterans, a broad swath of the American political landscape - I'm not sure why this perspective doesn't attract more attention these days.
    - calyth2018 5y ago
      > I'm not sure why this perspective doesn't attract more attention these days. Because this perspective dampens the prevailing narratives, that Russia is spinning pure propaganda in regards to NATO?
- mcguire 5y ago
  Lessee here,... Following several hundred years of rule by Poland and then Russia, in 1991 the Ukrainians voted overwhelmingly for independence from Russia. (I assume you think that was a mistake?) Between 1991 and 2004, two the administrations of two presidents retained close ties to Russia. However, in 2004, in an election festooned with accusations of fraud (serious accusations, not Trump-accusations), another pro-Russian president was elected, sparking protests and a second election, which brought into power another president who called for closer ties with the European Union. (Yeah, this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko demonstrating the results of not recognizing Russian authority.) Corruption seems to have abounded during most of these and the next president's terms. In 2010, another pro-Russian president was elected, which in 2013 and 2014 led to the Euromaidan protests, complete with violence, that led to that government's collapse. This was the time when Russia annexed Crimea and civil war broke out in Donetsk and Luhansk. (They should have just given up then, right?) The next President, elected in 2014, began again the policy of closing the relationship with the EU and withdrawing from the Commonwealth of Independent States, the association of countries from the USSR, and generally trying to clean up the mess. In 2019 the constitution was amended: "The authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine include ... determining the principles of internal and foreign policy, realization of the strategic course of the state on acquiring full-fledged membership of Ukraine in the European Union and in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. "The President of Ukraine is a guarantor of the implementation of the strategic course of the state for gaining full-fledged membership of Ukraine in the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. "The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine provides the implementation of the strategic course of the state for gaining full-fledged membership of Ukraine in the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization." (Stupid fools, don't they know they have no rights a world power is bound to respect? They're barely human!) Also in 2019, Zelenskyy was elected president with 73% of the vote, a group of prisoners were exchanged with Russia, freeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Sentsov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Sentsov, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Sushchenko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Sushchenko and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olexandr_Kolchenko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olexandr_Kolchenko, among others, and here we are today. (Not that I'm suggesting holding political prisoners is bad, mind you.) Now, Putin has said that the big mistake happened when Lenin's USSR gave Ukraine any autonomy at all, which may in fact be true. But, 1. The Ukrainians are not victims. Well, they are, but only of Russian aggression. 2. The military-industrial complex seems to have an awful lot of reach and power. Shades of the Elders of Zion, eh? On the other hand, seems like they could have worked a bit faster. 3. NATO does not look to be a very big player; the EU and Poland have had as big a hand in "false promises" if you choose to look at it that way.
georgia_peach 5y ago
Feels like the books written by the old hands are losing, badly, to the comic books and the movies, doesn't it?
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  Yup. We have this MCU good guys vs bad guys thing ingrained in us now. Nobody wants to talk seriously about the intricate complexities. My way or the highway. Russia bad. Ukraine good. America leader of the free world. Go to sleep. Eat. Buy. Work. Rinse. Repeat.
  - torstenvl 5y ago
    There is nothing complex about it. They're bombing hospitals and schools and they're doing it intentionally.
    - georgia_peach 5y ago
      Just like we do! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs...
      - warner_of_doom 5y ago
        NO! I hate looking in the mirror!
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - torstenvl 5y ago
        It's deeply dishonest to claim that a handful of deeply tragic mistakes are in any way morally equivalent to the systematic and relentless targeting of civilians that the Russians are engaged in. The U.S. military has committed war crimes. They have all been prosecuted by the U.S. government. From Abu Ghraib to Clint Lorance to the Marine Snipers to Eddie Gallagher. There is no moral equivalence. https://twitter.com/truthsunchained/status/1498765829382545418?s=21 https://twitter.com/truthsunchained/status/14987658293825454...
foogazi 5y ago
> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. Who is we ? A) President Z and the Ukrainian army can literally wave the white flag and let the Russian tanks roll into Kiev - they are the ones doing the sacrifice here B) Or President Putin can give the order to withdraw Who else need to be involved here ?
- Grustaf 5y ago
  The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on.
  - foogazi 5y ago
    > The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on Is that why they keep fighting? OTOH The east is clearly bombing Ukraine
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      They're fighting because they are being attacked, and because Slavs are courageous and stubborn. But the West are not telling them to give up, to save civilian lives. Instead they encourage them to keep fighting, delaying the inevitable. I don't know by how many days that will prolong the war, but it's reckless.
      - foogazi 5y ago
        Does the West have anything to do with Slav courage? Do you think Ukrainians are incapable of deciding for themselves? Putin seems to think so
        Grustaf 5y ago
        As I wrote. Ukraine will obviously defend itself when attacked, with or without the West. And the West has been clear about not helping. But encouraging them to keep fighting, when it seems completely hopeless, is not doing them a service. Keyboard warriors in the US telling Ukrainian civilians to throw Molotov cocktails on tanks is especially infuriating.
thraneh 5y ago
This is spot on! What has shocked me is how easily the narrative has been pushed in the EU. There has not been much backing for less confrontation. On the contrary, EU more than anything, is escalating by imposing economic sanctions on the Russian people. (Does sanctions ever do anything else than push people into poverty?) Everything appears to be designed to push Putin into a corner so he has no choice but to use those nukes. Are there any efforts at all to de-escalate the situation?
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  Not to mention the fact that these sanctions are going to make poor people starve. Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine make up a huge chunk of world grain, fertilizer, oil, and gas exports. In the Grand Chessboard, former NSA Zbigniew Brzezinski openly talks about oil and gas pipelines and diverting them away from Russia. That's what this war is really about.
  - thraneh 5y ago
    > Not to mention the fact that these sanctions are going to make poor people starve. This seems a very likely outcome. The EU obviously has no other "weapon" than sanctions. In my view, it has become a social media popularity contest. Let's punish everyone in Russia financially so maybe there will be an uprising. And, let's top it up with a free for all hunt on the assets of oligarchs. Is it anything else than the popularity contest playing out? Maybe it's ultimately like you say: about control of the oil and gas coming from Russia.
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      > about control of the oil and gas coming from Russia. No one focuses on this, but that's what WW1 and WW2 were always about. The eastern theatre was the most active one and it still is. The EU should just increase its defensive capabilities and call it a day. Make Poland and the Baltics the new red-line/frontier.
avasylev 5y ago
> Completely one-sided coverage I'm not sure what else you expected, it's completely one-sided issue - one side started and continues the war. One side can stop this war at any time. Did you expect 50-50 coverage, with 50% repeating Putin's propaganda?
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  > one side started and continues the war Not true. You have to look at the entire political situation in Ukraine, starting at least since 2003-4. And, especially 2014 and the US-backed putsch that took place that year.
  - avasylev 5y ago
    I'm well aware of political situation in Ukraine. I took part in the protests of 2004 that led to "US-backed putsch", had nothing to do with USA. You're stripping Ukrainian people of any agency. Not everything is secretly manipulated by USA or Russia, people of the country are not mindless bots.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      This time it wasn't very secret though, they were quite open about it.
      - avasylev 5y ago
        why would USA be secret about supporting Ukraine? USA was one of the countries guaranteeing Ukraine's safety in exchange for nuclear weapons release. I would argue USA is not doing enough for what they signed up for.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        We are not talking about "supporting", we are talking about staging coups and meddling in their internal politics and economy.
kashunstva 5y ago
> I am convinced that my country started this entire episode Unequivocally the government of the Russian Federation is the aggressor here. That the United States has been inconsistent with respect to Ukraine doesn't diminish the fact that the military of the Russian Federation is actively shelling hospitals, schools, residential dwellings and precipitating a humanitarian crisis in Europe.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  No. Not unequivocally. Do you know about what Victoria Nuland (leaked intercepted tapes), Senator John McCain, Senator Lindsay Graham, Hunter Biden, CIA John Brennan, etc. did in Ukraine? Zelenskyy ran on peace with Russia, but his puppet masters in Washington would never have allowed that. So, by late-2021, do you know that Zelenskyy had a sub-28% approval rating from his own population because he threatened to acquire nuclear weapons, threatened to join NATO, join the EU (comes with military connections also, BTW), take back Crimea and the entirety of the Donbas, etc.? His population mostly wanted Austria-style neutrality but he was being strung along by the US because we wanted to turn it into a battering ram against Russia. So, Russia acted pre-emptively. Heck, by our logic, this war is more justified than the Invasion of Iraq in 2003. You have to look at the entire political situation in Ukraine, starting at least since 2003-4. And, especially 2014 and the US-backed putsch that took place that year.
  - johnny22 5y ago
    unless ukraine was actually going to attack russia (and even then really re: preemptive war), none of that makes a difference.
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      So, unless Cuba was actually going to use those nuclear missiles and unless Turkey was actually going to use those nuclear missiles, the US and the USSR were both wrong in their actions?
      - 5y ago
BitwiseFool 5y ago
I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason. For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0 moment. The United States should have clearly recognized that trying to get Ukraine into NATO or even the EU was clearly going to make the Russians think they're being backed into a corner security-wise. We could have just as easily kept trading with Ukraine and cooperating without starting the process to join NATO.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  > turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types Manufactured consent.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    This kind of sharp ideological turn is typical for outbreak of wars. From what I have read, both the 1870 Prussian-French war and the outbreak of WWI in 1914 were followed by huge outpouring of militarist attitudes, even though there wasn't even radio (much less TV or Internet) and most common people didn't read newspapers, or rarely so. We seem to have a collective subroutine for turning into murderous apes in our societal firmware. It was probably adaptive once. It may not be as adaptive in the nuclear age.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, don’t think I need to watch CNN or read the New York Times to take Ukraine’s side on this one. The international condemnation and lock step sanctions, is that the media’s doing? Or is it the consequence of Russia being the aggressor? I agree with my sibling, opinions tend to stiffen up when war breaks out, with or without the radio.
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
credit_guy 5y ago
> We are literally sacrificing their country A little correction though: you need to replace "we" with "Russia", or "Putin". Fully agree with "This is just wrong" part.
throwaways85989 5y ago
I despise this western-centric view- were only the people in the west are real people, that can make decisions for themselves, and the rest is just pawns for playing a funny great board game. The idea that even a new-born nation, could walk out of the board game and do its own thing is so outrageous to the players, it is not even considered. Well, ukraine just tried that. Its a sovereign nation, and it wanted nothing to do with its imperialistic neighbourhood. And all the zhars horse and all the zhars man, could not hold all its conquered ethnicities in again and again, cause technology now favors david instead of goliath. So ukraine might not walk this time, but others will, until this ball of muddy-power dissolves one last and final time. Russia, this unreformable assembly of thiefdoms, is stumbling like a feverish plague victime towards the end of its story and it will not be pretty. To blame this corrosion on the west, is pompous victim blaming. Russia is also falling apart near the chinese border, were large parts of the economy are now owned by chinese state owned companies. Its just a failed state and to the man with glass-bones-disease even a friendly handshake is a attack.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  As Václav Havel used to say, the problem with Russia is that it does not know where exactly it ends.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    There's a geostrategic logic behind where Russia wants their borders positioned. Your statement applies more to other countries in Europe, IMO.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > There's a geostrategic logic behind where Russia wants their borders positioned. Yes, imperialism usually has a geostrategic logic. What it doesn't have is respect for the right of self-determination. > Your statement applies more to other countries in Europe Except you’ve literally just admitted that it is exactly the driving force for Russia.
prostoalex 5y ago
> We encouraged Zelensky to talk about acquiring nukes, grabbing Crimea back, grabbing Luhansk and Donestk, joining NATO and the EU, etc. This seems to be a US-centric view of the world, which assumes that Ukraine following blindly in whatever encouragement was provided. Zelensky is Ukraine’s 7th President, 3 years into his term. Ukraine has had administrations that were Russia-centric (two Kuchma terms, and then half of Yanukovich’s term) and in economic terms those did not pan out to be impressive. Ukrainian companies seem to crave access to European markets, as in many core areas (grains, livestock, aviation, machinery) they are competing with Russia. In energy consumption Ukraine also seems to get a better price for Russian natural gas when they are part of EU monopsony, negotiating a bulk discount, vs one-off negotiations. Is it too radical to assume that Ukrainians were acting out of self interest?
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  > Is it too radical to assume that Ukrainians were acting out of self interest? Zelenskyy ran on a platform of peace with Russia and neutrality vis-a-vis Russia and the West. What changed? The puppet-masters pulled strings or he was lying all along.
mindslight 5y ago
I'm no fan of the USian empire, but there is a categorical difference between playing the propaganda / political puppet game to affect a democratic process, and open war against another sovereign country because you don't like the result. All this talk of Russia getting upset that "its" sphere of influence would rather look westward is completely writing off the agency of individual countries that haven't been part of the USSR for over a generation. There are very good reasons why Ukraine et al look West instead of East - chiefly riches and individual freedoms. Russia could have riches, but instead suffers from the resource curse. Russia could have liberalized, but instead continued to rely on (and is now even tightening up) uniparty-based censorship. Say what you will about the failings and pathologies of Western liberalism. In fact, it's your patriotic duty to do so! But never take it for granted.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- postingawayonhn 5y ago
  > All this talk of Russia getting upset that "its" sphere of influence would rather look westward is completely writing off the agency of individual countries that haven't been part of the USSR for over a generation. Exactly. Russia has no inherent right to a sphere of influence. If it wants the support of its neighbours it will have to work hard to win that support.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    Yes, I agree. Russia doesn't have an inherent right to a sphere of influence. But, it is also a principle in international relations that one nation-state should not increase its security at the expense of another. This situation is reminiscent of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
jazzyjackson 5y ago
> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. This. is. just. wrong! what on earth? Who is we? Policy that pisses Russia off I can take blame for, but Americans sacrificing Ukrainians? I really just cannot parse how you lay guilt at our feet for Ukrainians’ propensity for defending their sovereignty from invaders.
- bllguo 5y ago
  do you not understand how pissing Russia off leads to sacrificing Ukrainian lives, or are you choosing not to?
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    It can be America’s fault for antagonizing Russia, while it is Russia’s fault for shelling college dorms. If this is cognitive dissonance so be it.
    - bllguo 5y ago
      If you are fine with the claim America goaded Russia into war, I don't see how you can then say America doesn't have blood on its hands. Clearly both would be culpable under the premise, regardless of who deserves what share of blame.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    No. Letting Russia do with foreign democracies leads to war like this. Appeasing dictators doesn't work.
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      Ukraine is far from a democracy. Far from it. Look deeper than this. This isn't a Chamberlain moment.
keewee7 5y ago
>We encouraged Zelensky to talk about acquiring nukes This is literally Kremlin lies and talking points.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  https://news.am/eng/news/687674.html https://news.am/eng/news/687674.html
landemva 5y ago
Graham and McCain were giving speeches in Ukraine in 2016. Apparently designed to annoy neighboring Russia. https://www.klobuchar.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2016/12/klobuchar-mccain-graham-in-ukraine-baltic-states-and-georgia-to-reinforce-support-for-nato-with-focus-on-cybersecurity https://www.klobuchar.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2016/12/kl... Meddling and stirring up trouble. And Biden's son was on board of directors of a Ukranian energy company getting paid $50,000 per month. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hunter-biden-ukraine/what-hunter-biden-did-on-the-board-of-ukrainian-energy-company-burisma-idUSKBN1WX1P7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hunter-biden-ukraine/what...
rramadass 5y ago
This is similar to what i had argued in another thread. NATO/US/EU played a geopolitical game with Russia where Ukraine is the sacrificial pawn. While Russia is the naked aggressor, the role of NATO/US/EU is more insidious and needs to be called out. It is the Ukrainian (and Russian) soldiers/people dying and suffering while NATO/US/EU have gotten away scot-free. Relevant Reading: 1) Opinion piece from Henry Kissinger himself; written after the last conflict in 2014 : https://cnnbc.com/henry-kissinger-on-ukraine https://cnnbc.com/henry-kissinger-on-ukraine 2) Article showing excerpts from US archives : https://www.dawn.com/news/1677138/ukraine-crisis https://www.dawn.com/news/1677138/ukraine-crisis 3) The relevant research by the professor referenced in the above article can be found at https://www.jrishifrinson.com/ https://www.jrishifrinson.com/ Excerpt from one of his papers "George H.W.Bush: Conservative Realist as President" : Acting Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger observed in an accompanying memorandum, “It is in our interest to see the peaceful end of the Soviet Union as we have known it since 1917—a strong, totalitarian central government able to mobilize the vast human and material resources at its control. . . . The sine qua non for eliminating this threat is substantial devolution of economic and political power [emphasis added].” Even more direct was Secretary of the Treasury Nicholas Brady, who argued in a June 1991 meeting of senior policymakers that “A real reform program would turn [the Soviet Union] into a third-rate [military] power, which is what we want;” judging from their comments at this meeting, Baker, Scowcroft, and others seemed to accept this point of view. Put simply, the spread of freedom, liberty, and U.S. values into the Soviet space was normatively attractive, but it also carried starkly advantageous geopolitical consequences for the United States.
MrYellowP 5y ago
> Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, Got in their way? What? Nonsense?! When you go to war based on lies you yourself made up, then it's intentional. That's not accidents that "get in the way".
himinlomax 5y ago
One sided coverage in 2003? That's not what I remember, and that was definitely NOT the case in Europe.
artem247 5y ago

ceilingcorner 5y ago

I have studied this situation nonstop for the last week and I pretty much have the same opinion as you. If you ask a simple question, Cui bono? (Who benefits?) it becomes clear that it’s ultimately another military industrial complex project. The sad part is that the only real victims here are the Ukrainian people, who were led along with false promises. Had NATO been wiser, none of this would be happening.

georgia_peach 5y ago
I think military-industrial complex gets its pound of flesh rain or shine. Westerners like their high-paying defense jobs. This is about bringing the entire world, state-by-state, under anglosphere concepts of law/property/morality/etc--but instead of subordinating Indians and Africans, it's Slavs this time.
warner_of_doom 5y ago
This is also playing right into NATO's hands in a way. But, after reading the authors I mentioned closely, I now realize that this is a war for control/negative-control over natural resources (grain, oil, gas, fertilizers, etc.). Also, this is about geostrategic security (anchoring at the Carpathian mountains and Bessarabia Gap). See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CNeDtZmpjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CNeDtZmpjU And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE
- thraneh 5y ago
  This has helped me better understand the strategic significance. Thank you. Edit: As a seeker of answers to the "why", I can't recommend these links enough.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    Same here, I too seek out the motive behind actions; otherwise, history is the most boring and unintelligible sequence of events known to man. I recommend you look into these authors/commentators/analysts: * John Mearsheimer * Noam Chomsky * Vladimir Pozner * Jeffrey Sachs * Zbigniew Brezinski * George Friedman * Peter Zeihan * Peter Hitchens * Gonzalo Lira * Tim Marshall * Robert D Kaplan * Jack F. Matlock Jr * George Kennan * Stephen Cohen * Henry Kissinger Indeed. NATO/EU expansion is essentially a slow-moving replay of Brest-Litovsk and Barbarossa from the Russian point-of-view. I'm an American but I totally understand why Russia just did what it did. Never forget that Lenin was sent to Russia BY GERMANY for the express purpose of destabilizing Russia during WW1. This is the type of destabilizing regime-change that Russia fears. Their fears are not unfounded if you pay close attention to what the US has done in Ukraine, which is something our media doesn't even cover. This is just the tip of the iceberg: * https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-removed-a-ban-on-funding-neo-nazis-from-its-year-end-spending-bill/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/congress-has-remo... * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukraine-leader-seeks-to-justify-offshore-accounts https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukra... * https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-r... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh9V8UxenI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK93aawlLKg
calyth2018 5y ago
These would be of interest for you: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16117-document-06-record-conversation-between https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16117-document-06-record-... https://archive.ph/gnqkv https://archive.ph/gnqkv - among the signers who opposed the NATO expansion during the late 90s to include the Visegrad group, Former SoD MacNamara https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300259933/not-one-inch https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300259933/not-one-inch Fog of War (Errol Morris documentary) - rather telling in there is empathy for your adversary, and the fact that there's so many parallels with the Cuban Missile Crisis. Seems like we've learnt nothing from it.
- owenversteeg 5y ago
  Quite the list of signatories, including C. William Maynes (editor of Foreign Policy magazine), Sen. Bill Bradley, Raymond Garthoff (former ambassador to Bulgaria), Morton Halperin (former ACLU director), Sen. Gary Hart, Arthur Hartman (Reagan's ambassador to the Soviet Union), Sen. Mark Hatfield, Sen. Gordon Humphrey, Fred Ikle (the man who proposed sending weapons to the Mujahideen), Sen. Bennett Johnston, James Leonard (ambassador to the UN), former Secretary of the Navy Paul H. Nitze, former Secretary of Defense McNamara, Sen. Sam Nunn, Ambassador to East Germany Herbert S. Okun, commander of US Air Force Japan Robert E. Pursley, CIA Director Stansfield Turner, plus a list of everything from well-known professors to Purple Heart recipients. In other words - left and right, ACLU and Senators, academia and veterans, a broad swath of the American political landscape - I'm not sure why this perspective doesn't attract more attention these days.
  - calyth2018 5y ago
    > I'm not sure why this perspective doesn't attract more attention these days. Because this perspective dampens the prevailing narratives, that Russia is spinning pure propaganda in regards to NATO?
mcguire 5y ago
Lessee here,... Following several hundred years of rule by Poland and then Russia, in 1991 the Ukrainians voted overwhelmingly for independence from Russia. (I assume you think that was a mistake?) Between 1991 and 2004, two the administrations of two presidents retained close ties to Russia. However, in 2004, in an election festooned with accusations of fraud (serious accusations, not Trump-accusations), another pro-Russian president was elected, sparking protests and a second election, which brought into power another president who called for closer ties with the European Union. (Yeah, this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko demonstrating the results of not recognizing Russian authority.) Corruption seems to have abounded during most of these and the next president's terms. In 2010, another pro-Russian president was elected, which in 2013 and 2014 led to the Euromaidan protests, complete with violence, that led to that government's collapse. This was the time when Russia annexed Crimea and civil war broke out in Donetsk and Luhansk. (They should have just given up then, right?) The next President, elected in 2014, began again the policy of closing the relationship with the EU and withdrawing from the Commonwealth of Independent States, the association of countries from the USSR, and generally trying to clean up the mess. In 2019 the constitution was amended: "The authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine include ... determining the principles of internal and foreign policy, realization of the strategic course of the state on acquiring full-fledged membership of Ukraine in the European Union and in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. "The President of Ukraine is a guarantor of the implementation of the strategic course of the state for gaining full-fledged membership of Ukraine in the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. "The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine provides the implementation of the strategic course of the state for gaining full-fledged membership of Ukraine in the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization." (Stupid fools, don't they know they have no rights a world power is bound to respect? They're barely human!) Also in 2019, Zelenskyy was elected president with 73% of the vote, a group of prisoners were exchanged with Russia, freeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Sentsov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Sentsov, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Sushchenko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Sushchenko and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olexandr_Kolchenko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olexandr_Kolchenko, among others, and here we are today. (Not that I'm suggesting holding political prisoners is bad, mind you.) Now, Putin has said that the big mistake happened when Lenin's USSR gave Ukraine any autonomy at all, which may in fact be true. But, 1. The Ukrainians are not victims. Well, they are, but only of Russian aggression. 2. The military-industrial complex seems to have an awful lot of reach and power. Shades of the Elders of Zion, eh? On the other hand, seems like they could have worked a bit faster. 3. NATO does not look to be a very big player; the EU and Poland have had as big a hand in "false promises" if you choose to look at it that way.

georgia_peach 5y ago

Feels like the books written by the old hands are losing, badly, to the comic books and the movies, doesn't it?

warner_of_doom 5y ago
Yup. We have this MCU good guys vs bad guys thing ingrained in us now. Nobody wants to talk seriously about the intricate complexities. My way or the highway. Russia bad. Ukraine good. America leader of the free world. Go to sleep. Eat. Buy. Work. Rinse. Repeat.
- torstenvl 5y ago
  There is nothing complex about it. They're bombing hospitals and schools and they're doing it intentionally.
  - georgia_peach 5y ago
    Just like we do! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs...
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      NO! I hate looking in the mirror!
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - torstenvl 5y ago
      It's deeply dishonest to claim that a handful of deeply tragic mistakes are in any way morally equivalent to the systematic and relentless targeting of civilians that the Russians are engaged in. The U.S. military has committed war crimes. They have all been prosecuted by the U.S. government. From Abu Ghraib to Clint Lorance to the Marine Snipers to Eddie Gallagher. There is no moral equivalence. https://twitter.com/truthsunchained/status/1498765829382545418?s=21 https://twitter.com/truthsunchained/status/14987658293825454...

foogazi 5y ago

> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. Who is we ? A) President Z and the Ukrainian army can literally wave the white flag and let the Russian tanks roll into Kiev - they are the ones doing the sacrifice here B) Or President Putin can give the order to withdraw Who else need to be involved here ?

Grustaf 5y ago
The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on.
- foogazi 5y ago
  > The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on Is that why they keep fighting? OTOH The east is clearly bombing Ukraine
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    They're fighting because they are being attacked, and because Slavs are courageous and stubborn. But the West are not telling them to give up, to save civilian lives. Instead they encourage them to keep fighting, delaying the inevitable. I don't know by how many days that will prolong the war, but it's reckless.
    - foogazi 5y ago
      Does the West have anything to do with Slav courage? Do you think Ukrainians are incapable of deciding for themselves? Putin seems to think so
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        As I wrote. Ukraine will obviously defend itself when attacked, with or without the West. And the West has been clear about not helping. But encouraging them to keep fighting, when it seems completely hopeless, is not doing them a service. Keyboard warriors in the US telling Ukrainian civilians to throw Molotov cocktails on tanks is especially infuriating.

thraneh 5y ago

This is spot on! What has shocked me is how easily the narrative has been pushed in the EU. There has not been much backing for less confrontation. On the contrary, EU more than anything, is escalating by imposing economic sanctions on the Russian people. (Does sanctions ever do anything else than push people into poverty?) Everything appears to be designed to push Putin into a corner so he has no choice but to use those nukes. Are there any efforts at all to de-escalate the situation?

warner_of_doom 5y ago
Not to mention the fact that these sanctions are going to make poor people starve. Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine make up a huge chunk of world grain, fertilizer, oil, and gas exports. In the Grand Chessboard, former NSA Zbigniew Brzezinski openly talks about oil and gas pipelines and diverting them away from Russia. That's what this war is really about.
- thraneh 5y ago
  > Not to mention the fact that these sanctions are going to make poor people starve. This seems a very likely outcome. The EU obviously has no other "weapon" than sanctions. In my view, it has become a social media popularity contest. Let's punish everyone in Russia financially so maybe there will be an uprising. And, let's top it up with a free for all hunt on the assets of oligarchs. Is it anything else than the popularity contest playing out? Maybe it's ultimately like you say: about control of the oil and gas coming from Russia.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    > about control of the oil and gas coming from Russia. No one focuses on this, but that's what WW1 and WW2 were always about. The eastern theatre was the most active one and it still is. The EU should just increase its defensive capabilities and call it a day. Make Poland and the Baltics the new red-line/frontier.

avasylev 5y ago

> Completely one-sided coverage I'm not sure what else you expected, it's completely one-sided issue - one side started and continues the war. One side can stop this war at any time. Did you expect 50-50 coverage, with 50% repeating Putin's propaganda?

warner_of_doom 5y ago
> one side started and continues the war Not true. You have to look at the entire political situation in Ukraine, starting at least since 2003-4. And, especially 2014 and the US-backed putsch that took place that year.
- avasylev 5y ago
  I'm well aware of political situation in Ukraine. I took part in the protests of 2004 that led to "US-backed putsch", had nothing to do with USA. You're stripping Ukrainian people of any agency. Not everything is secretly manipulated by USA or Russia, people of the country are not mindless bots.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    This time it wasn't very secret though, they were quite open about it.
    - avasylev 5y ago
      why would USA be secret about supporting Ukraine? USA was one of the countries guaranteeing Ukraine's safety in exchange for nuclear weapons release. I would argue USA is not doing enough for what they signed up for.
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        We are not talking about "supporting", we are talking about staging coups and meddling in their internal politics and economy.

kashunstva 5y ago

> I am convinced that my country started this entire episode Unequivocally the government of the Russian Federation is the aggressor here. That the United States has been inconsistent with respect to Ukraine doesn't diminish the fact that the military of the Russian Federation is actively shelling hospitals, schools, residential dwellings and precipitating a humanitarian crisis in Europe.

warner_of_doom 5y ago
No. Not unequivocally. Do you know about what Victoria Nuland (leaked intercepted tapes), Senator John McCain, Senator Lindsay Graham, Hunter Biden, CIA John Brennan, etc. did in Ukraine? Zelenskyy ran on peace with Russia, but his puppet masters in Washington would never have allowed that. So, by late-2021, do you know that Zelenskyy had a sub-28% approval rating from his own population because he threatened to acquire nuclear weapons, threatened to join NATO, join the EU (comes with military connections also, BTW), take back Crimea and the entirety of the Donbas, etc.? His population mostly wanted Austria-style neutrality but he was being strung along by the US because we wanted to turn it into a battering ram against Russia. So, Russia acted pre-emptively. Heck, by our logic, this war is more justified than the Invasion of Iraq in 2003. You have to look at the entire political situation in Ukraine, starting at least since 2003-4. And, especially 2014 and the US-backed putsch that took place that year.
- johnny22 5y ago
  unless ukraine was actually going to attack russia (and even then really re: preemptive war), none of that makes a difference.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    So, unless Cuba was actually going to use those nuclear missiles and unless Turkey was actually going to use those nuclear missiles, the US and the USSR were both wrong in their actions?
    - 5y ago

BitwiseFool 5y ago

I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason. For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0 moment. The United States should have clearly recognized that trying to get Ukraine into NATO or even the EU was clearly going to make the Russians think they're being backed into a corner security-wise. We could have just as easily kept trading with Ukraine and cooperating without starting the process to join NATO.

warner_of_doom 5y ago
> turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types Manufactured consent.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  This kind of sharp ideological turn is typical for outbreak of wars. From what I have read, both the 1870 Prussian-French war and the outbreak of WWI in 1914 were followed by huge outpouring of militarist attitudes, even though there wasn't even radio (much less TV or Internet) and most common people didn't read newspapers, or rarely so. We seem to have a collective subroutine for turning into murderous apes in our societal firmware. It was probably adaptive once. It may not be as adaptive in the nuclear age.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, don’t think I need to watch CNN or read the New York Times to take Ukraine’s side on this one. The international condemnation and lock step sanctions, is that the media’s doing? Or is it the consequence of Russia being the aggressor? I agree with my sibling, opinions tend to stiffen up when war breaks out, with or without the radio.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago

credit_guy 5y ago

> We are literally sacrificing their country A little correction though: you need to replace "we" with "Russia", or "Putin". Fully agree with "This is just wrong" part.

throwaways85989 5y ago

I despise this western-centric view- were only the people in the west are real people, that can make decisions for themselves, and the rest is just pawns for playing a funny great board game. The idea that even a new-born nation, could walk out of the board game and do its own thing is so outrageous to the players, it is not even considered. Well, ukraine just tried that. Its a sovereign nation, and it wanted nothing to do with its imperialistic neighbourhood. And all the zhars horse and all the zhars man, could not hold all its conquered ethnicities in again and again, cause technology now favors david instead of goliath. So ukraine might not walk this time, but others will, until this ball of muddy-power dissolves one last and final time. Russia, this unreformable assembly of thiefdoms, is stumbling like a feverish plague victime towards the end of its story and it will not be pretty. To blame this corrosion on the west, is pompous victim blaming. Russia is also falling apart near the chinese border, were large parts of the economy are now owned by chinese state owned companies. Its just a failed state and to the man with glass-bones-disease even a friendly handshake is a attack.

inglor_cz 5y ago
As Václav Havel used to say, the problem with Russia is that it does not know where exactly it ends.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  There's a geostrategic logic behind where Russia wants their borders positioned. Your statement applies more to other countries in Europe, IMO.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > There's a geostrategic logic behind where Russia wants their borders positioned. Yes, imperialism usually has a geostrategic logic. What it doesn't have is respect for the right of self-determination. > Your statement applies more to other countries in Europe Except you’ve literally just admitted that it is exactly the driving force for Russia.

prostoalex 5y ago

> We encouraged Zelensky to talk about acquiring nukes, grabbing Crimea back, grabbing Luhansk and Donestk, joining NATO and the EU, etc. This seems to be a US-centric view of the world, which assumes that Ukraine following blindly in whatever encouragement was provided. Zelensky is Ukraine’s 7th President, 3 years into his term. Ukraine has had administrations that were Russia-centric (two Kuchma terms, and then half of Yanukovich’s term) and in economic terms those did not pan out to be impressive. Ukrainian companies seem to crave access to European markets, as in many core areas (grains, livestock, aviation, machinery) they are competing with Russia. In energy consumption Ukraine also seems to get a better price for Russian natural gas when they are part of EU monopsony, negotiating a bulk discount, vs one-off negotiations. Is it too radical to assume that Ukrainians were acting out of self interest?

warner_of_doom 5y ago
> Is it too radical to assume that Ukrainians were acting out of self interest? Zelenskyy ran on a platform of peace with Russia and neutrality vis-a-vis Russia and the West. What changed? The puppet-masters pulled strings or he was lying all along.

mindslight 5y ago

I'm no fan of the USian empire, but there is a categorical difference between playing the propaganda / political puppet game to affect a democratic process, and open war against another sovereign country because you don't like the result. All this talk of Russia getting upset that "its" sphere of influence would rather look westward is completely writing off the agency of individual countries that haven't been part of the USSR for over a generation. There are very good reasons why Ukraine et al look West instead of East - chiefly riches and individual freedoms. Russia could have riches, but instead suffers from the resource curse. Russia could have liberalized, but instead continued to rely on (and is now even tightening up) uniparty-based censorship. Say what you will about the failings and pathologies of Western liberalism. In fact, it's your patriotic duty to do so! But never take it for granted.

deleted 5y ago
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postingawayonhn 5y ago
> All this talk of Russia getting upset that "its" sphere of influence would rather look westward is completely writing off the agency of individual countries that haven't been part of the USSR for over a generation. Exactly. Russia has no inherent right to a sphere of influence. If it wants the support of its neighbours it will have to work hard to win that support.
- warner_of_doom 5y ago
  Yes, I agree. Russia doesn't have an inherent right to a sphere of influence. But, it is also a principle in international relations that one nation-state should not increase its security at the expense of another. This situation is reminiscent of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

jazzyjackson 5y ago

> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. This. is. just. wrong! what on earth? Who is we? Policy that pisses Russia off I can take blame for, but Americans sacrificing Ukrainians? I really just cannot parse how you lay guilt at our feet for Ukrainians’ propensity for defending their sovereignty from invaders.

bllguo 5y ago
do you not understand how pissing Russia off leads to sacrificing Ukrainian lives, or are you choosing not to?
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  It can be America’s fault for antagonizing Russia, while it is Russia’s fault for shelling college dorms. If this is cognitive dissonance so be it.
  - bllguo 5y ago
    If you are fine with the claim America goaded Russia into war, I don't see how you can then say America doesn't have blood on its hands. Clearly both would be culpable under the premise, regardless of who deserves what share of blame.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  No. Letting Russia do with foreign democracies leads to war like this. Appeasing dictators doesn't work.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    Ukraine is far from a democracy. Far from it. Look deeper than this. This isn't a Chamberlain moment.

keewee7 5y ago

>We encouraged Zelensky to talk about acquiring nukes This is literally Kremlin lies and talking points.

warner_of_doom 5y ago
https://news.am/eng/news/687674.html https://news.am/eng/news/687674.html

landemva 5y ago

Graham and McCain were giving speeches in Ukraine in 2016. Apparently designed to annoy neighboring Russia. https://www.klobuchar.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2016/12/klobuchar-mccain-graham-in-ukraine-baltic-states-and-georgia-to-reinforce-support-for-nato-with-focus-on-cybersecurity https://www.klobuchar.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2016/12/kl... Meddling and stirring up trouble. And Biden's son was on board of directors of a Ukranian energy company getting paid $50,000 per month. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hunter-biden-ukraine/what-hunter-biden-did-on-the-board-of-ukrainian-energy-company-burisma-idUSKBN1WX1P7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hunter-biden-ukraine/what...

rramadass 5y ago

This is similar to what i had argued in another thread. NATO/US/EU played a geopolitical game with Russia where Ukraine is the sacrificial pawn. While Russia is the naked aggressor, the role of NATO/US/EU is more insidious and needs to be called out. It is the Ukrainian (and Russian) soldiers/people dying and suffering while NATO/US/EU have gotten away scot-free. Relevant Reading: 1) Opinion piece from Henry Kissinger himself; written after the last conflict in 2014 : https://cnnbc.com/henry-kissinger-on-ukraine https://cnnbc.com/henry-kissinger-on-ukraine 2) Article showing excerpts from US archives : https://www.dawn.com/news/1677138/ukraine-crisis https://www.dawn.com/news/1677138/ukraine-crisis 3) The relevant research by the professor referenced in the above article can be found at https://www.jrishifrinson.com/ https://www.jrishifrinson.com/ Excerpt from one of his papers "George H.W.Bush: Conservative Realist as President" : Acting Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger observed in an accompanying memorandum, “It is in our interest to see the peaceful end of the Soviet Union as we have known it since 1917—a strong, totalitarian central government able to mobilize the vast human and material resources at its control. . . . The sine qua non for eliminating this threat is substantial devolution of economic and political power [emphasis added].” Even more direct was Secretary of the Treasury Nicholas Brady, who argued in a June 1991 meeting of senior policymakers that “A real reform program would turn [the Soviet Union] into a third-rate [military] power, which is what we want;” judging from their comments at this meeting, Baker, Scowcroft, and others seemed to accept this point of view. Put simply, the spread of freedom, liberty, and U.S. values into the Soviet space was normatively attractive, but it also carried starkly advantageous geopolitical consequences for the United States.

MrYellowP 5y ago

> Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, Got in their way? What? Nonsense?! When you go to war based on lies you yourself made up, then it's intentional. That's not accidents that "get in the way".

himinlomax 5y ago

One sided coverage in 2003? That's not what I remember, and that was definitely NOT the case in Europe.

artem247 5y ago