7 ms·

The article mentions it’s a prion or prion-like. Kinda scary. Does our immune system not have any way to fight prions? If not then presumably vaccines wouldn’t

The article mentions it’s a prion or prion-like. Kinda scary. Does our immune system not have any way to fight prions? If not then presumably vaccines wouldn’t work against them either.

flobosg 5y ago
> Does our immune system not have any way to fight prions? The normal and misfolded versions of a prion have the same protein sequence. This lack of differentiation allows the pathogenic form of prions to remain undetected by the immune system.
- programmarchy 5y ago
  I understand that it’s the same sequence but the immune system doesn’t “know” about the sequence, it “knows” about the shape, no? Seems like a misfolded protein would have a different shape and receptors would bind to it differently.
  - flobosg 5y ago
    You’re right, antibodies are able to recognize shape. Several early steps of the immune response, however, are independent of conformation. For example, in order to be presented, protein antigens are usually processed and chopped into small peptides, and these may be similar between both prion variants. Additionally, prion proteins can be resistant to that sort of processing.
    - epgui 5y ago
      For more info about what this commenter is talking about: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_compl...
dmead 5y ago
There's a ted talk out there that supposed that people who develop als all spent time in forests/streams.
- manmal 5y ago
  Weirdly, professional soccer players are disproportionately affected, while eg road cyclists are not: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19267274/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19267274/ Football players also have a 4x increased risk: https://tulsaworld.com/lifestyles/ask-the-doctor-pro-football-players-more-likely-to-develop-als/article_f70a8f66-f8a6-52bf-b51a-71a725537148.html https://tulsaworld.com/lifestyles/ask-the-doctor-pro-footbal... But basketball players don’t - go figure. Stephen Hawkins spent ca 1000h on boats during his college years (interesting since you mentioned that streams might bear some trigger)
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    The commonality between those effected may be the causative factor. If that same commonality is missing from those less effected it's even more supporting evidence. In the set you presented. The only people who have increased risk of ALS are those that play sports on grass fields. Maybe that's the key? Grass.
    - alfon 5y ago
      "Ticks love to be in moist, low grass, so a lot of games, whether it's football, baseball, tend to happen in the morning. There may be dew on the grass and that's where a lot of ticks survive and hang out," Nesheiwat said. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ticks-lyme-disease-cdc-putnam-county/ https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ticks-lyme-disease-cdc-... Lots of anecdotal evidence of ALS developing after tick bites, or more concretely infection with Borrelia Burgdorferi. Probably a genetic component, and other enviromental factors are also involved, but the only dramatic reversals of MND I have seen documented (or heard about) have been either with IV antibiotics [1][3], or years of Mercury chelation [2] [1] https://invisibledisabilities.org/award-recipients/2011awards/2011-research-award-david-martz-md/ https://invisibledisabilities.org/award-recipients/2011award... [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17212618/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17212618/ [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317849075_Healing_of_Amyotrophic_Lateral_Sclerosis_A_Case_Report https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317849075_Healing_o... In the recent book "Chronic" by Dr. Stephen Philips, he's frustrated since he can only treat successfully (outcome similar to Dr. Martz), with antibiotics, about 15% of his ALS-like patients. Considering how uniformly fatal ALS diagnosis is otherwise, even considering how skewed of a sample he might get (patients that already know they are Lyme positive or suspect it), still find it astonishing.
jaquer_1 5y ago
We got heat-shock proteins, they can be activated by IR light or substances such as sulforaphane. Genetically modified mice, with no heat-shock proteins, die faster when infected with certain prions.

The article mentions it’s a prion or prion-like. Kinda scary. Does our immune system not have any way to fight prions? If not then presumably vaccines wouldn’t work against them either.

flobosg 5y ago

> Does our immune system not have any way to fight prions? The normal and misfolded versions of a prion have the same protein sequence. This lack of differentiation allows the pathogenic form of prions to remain undetected by the immune system.

programmarchy 5y ago
I understand that it’s the same sequence but the immune system doesn’t “know” about the sequence, it “knows” about the shape, no? Seems like a misfolded protein would have a different shape and receptors would bind to it differently.
- flobosg 5y ago
  You’re right, antibodies are able to recognize shape. Several early steps of the immune response, however, are independent of conformation. For example, in order to be presented, protein antigens are usually processed and chopped into small peptides, and these may be similar between both prion variants. Additionally, prion proteins can be resistant to that sort of processing.
  - epgui 5y ago
    For more info about what this commenter is talking about: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen-presenting_cell - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_compl...

dmead 5y ago

There's a ted talk out there that supposed that people who develop als all spent time in forests/streams.

manmal 5y ago
Weirdly, professional soccer players are disproportionately affected, while eg road cyclists are not: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19267274/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19267274/ Football players also have a 4x increased risk: https://tulsaworld.com/lifestyles/ask-the-doctor-pro-football-players-more-likely-to-develop-als/article_f70a8f66-f8a6-52bf-b51a-71a725537148.html https://tulsaworld.com/lifestyles/ask-the-doctor-pro-footbal... But basketball players don’t - go figure. Stephen Hawkins spent ca 1000h on boats during his college years (interesting since you mentioned that streams might bear some trigger)
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  The commonality between those effected may be the causative factor. If that same commonality is missing from those less effected it's even more supporting evidence. In the set you presented. The only people who have increased risk of ALS are those that play sports on grass fields. Maybe that's the key? Grass.
  - alfon 5y ago
    "Ticks love to be in moist, low grass, so a lot of games, whether it's football, baseball, tend to happen in the morning. There may be dew on the grass and that's where a lot of ticks survive and hang out," Nesheiwat said. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ticks-lyme-disease-cdc-putnam-county/ https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ticks-lyme-disease-cdc-... Lots of anecdotal evidence of ALS developing after tick bites, or more concretely infection with Borrelia Burgdorferi. Probably a genetic component, and other enviromental factors are also involved, but the only dramatic reversals of MND I have seen documented (or heard about) have been either with IV antibiotics [1][3], or years of Mercury chelation [2] [1] https://invisibledisabilities.org/award-recipients/2011awards/2011-research-award-david-martz-md/ https://invisibledisabilities.org/award-recipients/2011award... [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17212618/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17212618/ [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317849075_Healing_of_Amyotrophic_Lateral_Sclerosis_A_Case_Report https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317849075_Healing_o... In the recent book "Chronic" by Dr. Stephen Philips, he's frustrated since he can only treat successfully (outcome similar to Dr. Martz), with antibiotics, about 15% of his ALS-like patients. Considering how uniformly fatal ALS diagnosis is otherwise, even considering how skewed of a sample he might get (patients that already know they are Lyme positive or suspect it), still find it astonishing.

jaquer_1 5y ago

We got heat-shock proteins, they can be activated by IR light or substances such as sulforaphane. Genetically modified mice, with no heat-shock proteins, die faster when infected with certain prions.