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As a Lithuanian... All the „It's the West fault“ crowd is missing the elephant in the room. What is the alternative if West did what Russia want? De-facto Iron

by mantas 5y ago

As a Lithuanian... All the „It's the West fault“ crowd is missing the elephant in the room. What is the alternative if West did what Russia want? De-facto Iron curtain still up with tens of millions of people living under authoritarian regimes similar to Belarus and, well, Russia. Yes, it's completely „West fault“ since they could have left us for Russia to eat for lunch. More „West faults“ please.

warner_of_doom 5y ago
I am all for making Poland and the Baltics a hard red-line front that we protect against Russia. But, taking Ukraine from Russia in this non-neutral manner is just wrong. We can easily hold the Polish and Baltic fronts. And, Russia can live with that too. We can then trade as usual.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > But, taking Ukraine from Russia in this non-neutral manner Taking Ukraine from Russia? What have Russia the right to take Ukraine from (checks) Ukraine?
  - georgia_peach 5y ago
    The same "right" the US would have had with Cuba if Khrushchev didn't remove the missiles, or the same "right" the US exercises when a small country with oil ponders denominating it in a different currency.
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      And US was also fucking wrong. Imperialism is evil.
      - georgia_peach 5y ago
        Agreed. You have to ask yourself though: Why is the Western media so intent on cleaning Russia's house, while vehemently denying, dutifully downplaying, the West's own squalor? It is a truly striking example of "the beam and the mote." After we remove the beam from our own eye, I will be glad to address Russia's splinter.
        mantas 5y ago
        Coming from ex-USSR, West's issues are minuscule compared to the ones that Russia brings. I love having petty first world problems compared to what people 100km east from me deals. It's just entirely different leagues of issues. And reading Western media, it usually downplays Russian issues and present West's much bolder than they truly are.
      - mantas 5y ago
        At the same time US supported right of self determination after WW1. That allowed many small states to pop up in eastern/central europe. Which, IMO, was the last nail in the coffin of several empires.
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    What gives US the right to take Ukraine from Ukraine? Thats where the story started
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    - mcphage 5y ago
      > Thats where the story started Did I miss the bit where the US invaded Ukraine in effort to take it over?
      - warner_of_doom 5y ago
      - 331c8c71 5y ago
        warner_of_doom 5y ago
        Even the "pro-Ukrainian" population in Ukraine has sought neutrality in the US-Russian conflict but American regime-control and regime-change operations ensured that whoever came to power would have to kowtow to American demands. This is a proxy-war. Plain and simple.
polski-g 5y ago
Ukraine stays neutral and doesn't join Russia nor NATO?
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  In that case, would you rely on Russia to stay neutral? Why didn’t staying neutral prevent Russia from occupying Crimea?
  - polski-g 5y ago
    Because the CIA backed a coup in Ukraine?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - jazzyjackson 5y ago
      Says who? I’m only caught up to what’s been declassified, so I had to google what you’re talking about. This [0] is a good enough answer for me: CIA involvement in 2014 is a rumor at best and Russian propaganda at worst. I like knowing what my government is up to so if you have a credible source by all means… > The claims are coming from Putin's advisers who threatened to invade Ukraine. However, there's a problem with this stance - Ukraine protesters did not need significant funds and had very few weapons, mostly self-made Molotov cocktails, and absolutely no heavy weapons or even machine guns. Their actions were fairly chaotic, but when 300,000 people pour on the streets, little can be done in response. In the meantime, no CIA agents were documented in Kiev - Russia would have advertised such evidence if there was any. Further down: > There was no “coup.” After about three months of protests and police violence against demonstrators, Ukrainian president Yanukovych fled the country to escape prosecution, was kicked out of his own party, and voted out of office, peacefully, by a majority of the democratically elected parliament, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. The largest block of parliamentarians that voted him out were his own party members and former party members. [0] https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Ukraines-2014-revolution-was-due-to-a-CIA-coup https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Uk...

by mantas 5y ago

warner_of_doom 5y ago

I am all for making Poland and the Baltics a hard red-line front that we protect against Russia. But, taking Ukraine from Russia in this non-neutral manner is just wrong. We can easily hold the Polish and Baltic fronts. And, Russia can live with that too. We can then trade as usual.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> But, taking Ukraine from Russia in this non-neutral manner Taking Ukraine from Russia? What have Russia the right to take Ukraine from (checks) Ukraine?
- georgia_peach 5y ago
  The same "right" the US would have had with Cuba if Khrushchev didn't remove the missiles, or the same "right" the US exercises when a small country with oil ponders denominating it in a different currency.
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    And US was also fucking wrong. Imperialism is evil.
    - georgia_peach 5y ago
      Agreed. You have to ask yourself though: Why is the Western media so intent on cleaning Russia's house, while vehemently denying, dutifully downplaying, the West's own squalor? It is a truly striking example of "the beam and the mote." After we remove the beam from our own eye, I will be glad to address Russia's splinter.
      - mantas 5y ago
        Coming from ex-USSR, West's issues are minuscule compared to the ones that Russia brings. I love having petty first world problems compared to what people 100km east from me deals. It's just entirely different leagues of issues. And reading Western media, it usually downplays Russian issues and present West's much bolder than they truly are.
    - mantas 5y ago
      At the same time US supported right of self determination after WW1. That allowed many small states to pop up in eastern/central europe. Which, IMO, was the last nail in the coffin of several empires.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  What gives US the right to take Ukraine from Ukraine? Thats where the story started
  - warner_of_doom 5y ago
  - mcphage 5y ago
    > Thats where the story started Did I miss the bit where the US invaded Ukraine in effort to take it over?
    - warner_of_doom 5y ago
    - 331c8c71 5y ago
      - warner_of_doom 5y ago
        Even the "pro-Ukrainian" population in Ukraine has sought neutrality in the US-Russian conflict but American regime-control and regime-change operations ensured that whoever came to power would have to kowtow to American demands. This is a proxy-war. Plain and simple.

polski-g 5y ago

Ukraine stays neutral and doesn't join Russia nor NATO?

jazzyjackson 5y ago
In that case, would you rely on Russia to stay neutral? Why didn’t staying neutral prevent Russia from occupying Crimea?
- polski-g 5y ago
  Because the CIA backed a coup in Ukraine?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    Says who? I’m only caught up to what’s been declassified, so I had to google what you’re talking about. This [0] is a good enough answer for me: CIA involvement in 2014 is a rumor at best and Russian propaganda at worst. I like knowing what my government is up to so if you have a credible source by all means… > The claims are coming from Putin's advisers who threatened to invade Ukraine. However, there's a problem with this stance - Ukraine protesters did not need significant funds and had very few weapons, mostly self-made Molotov cocktails, and absolutely no heavy weapons or even machine guns. Their actions were fairly chaotic, but when 300,000 people pour on the streets, little can be done in response. In the meantime, no CIA agents were documented in Kiev - Russia would have advertised such evidence if there was any. Further down: > There was no “coup.” After about three months of protests and police violence against demonstrators, Ukrainian president Yanukovych fled the country to escape prosecution, was kicked out of his own party, and voted out of office, peacefully, by a majority of the democratically elected parliament, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. The largest block of parliamentarians that voted him out were his own party members and former party members. [0] https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Ukraines-2014-revolution-was-due-to-a-CIA-coup https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Uk...