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Sounds like you own a horse more than a car. If I have to plan my day around waking my horse up, feeding it breakfast, stopping so it can rest at a supercharge

Sounds like you own a horse more than a car. If I have to plan my day around waking my horse up, feeding it breakfast, stopping so it can rest at a supercharger, arranging my bathroom breaks to suit its needs ... I would rather own a car. I'm at work right now. I have not seen green grass since early November. It's currently -12c. Predictions for next week are lows below -20c. We had a good two months below -30, with a couple weeks touching below -40 in the mornings. Last year I had to drive to work once at -47c. My tiny Honda lives outside in the elements but always starts without complaint. It gets me to work each morning without fail. (Fyi,-40c is the same temp as -40f. -12c is about +10f)

gameswithgo 5y ago
An EV would also get you to work each morning without fail, unless you are 200 miles from work. It doesn't even need to start up.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  My nearest airport is 200miles away, 400 for the trip. I will be making that drive next week to pickup a work college. I believe that Tesla and every other lithium-using EV only rates their cars to -30c. Below that might void a warranty, a financial risk I cannot afford. And I shudder at the concept of DRM deciding to brick my car because it is "too cold to drive". That nightmare is coming at us soon. I will then be in the market for a snow machine, which are regular on major roads in my area when the weather is really bad.
  - c0nfused 5y ago
    I think the current guidance is not below -30 for more than 24 hours because the battery coolant will freeze and then everything blows up. Based on your weather reporting. I would stick with ICE. As heat isn't free on an electric car in general. So, at the more extreme ends of the spectrum it will be hard to beat ICE
    - sandworm101 5y ago
      In our town (about 15,000 people, about 1/2 military-related) there are only a handful of EVs, and only two Teslas. Everyone knows who owns them. They all hibernate through winter in warm garages beside giant ICE pickup trucks. They are just fashion statements rather than 24/7/365 daily drivers. EVs are not an option for those of us who cannot afford multiple vehicles.
      - gjs278 5y ago
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  The chart in that OP only goes down to freezing. Where I live it hasn't gotten up to freezing this winter but four or five days. It's been single-digit or subzero for months. Likely that EV is not going to work here, not reliably. There's something to be said for ICE.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    They might be reliable, but with reliably poor performance. A battery-powered EV relies on chemical reactions and all chemical reactions are sensitive to temperature. Hot or cold, it will always be an issue for everyone beyond socal.
- Alan_Dillman 5y ago
  It certainly would need to run for a bit to thaw out the window and warm the passenger compartment. One cannot just push start and drive off in climates with actual frost and snowfall.
olyjohn 5y ago
Wow so a lot of people go out and warm their cars up before they leave for work. I have done it on days where it's not even below freezing... You're really exaggerating the amount of work it is to warm up the Tesla. And it also sounds like you're in a place where an EV doesn't make sense. They don't make sense for everybody, but that doesn't mean they aren't fine for the majority of people who drive. So don't buy an EV. I'm not sure that your argument makes sense for most people. I've never even experienced -40, or anything close, and neither have most people that I know.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  The difference is that people warm up their car for comfort, not necessity. At sub-zero temperatures a modern gasoline-burning car[1] doesn't need to warm up for more than a few seconds, at least once it is properly started. The only practical reason to let them warm up before moving is to get some heat into the passenger compartment. [1] The issues regarding diesel in winter is a whole other discussion. Diesel fuel is longer molecules and gets very thick in cold. Diesel cars/trucks/generators can have real issues in winter.
  - frumper 5y ago
    My Tesla auto warms up every morning on a schedule. If I didn't set the schedule it's literally a button tap on from my phone. That's a far cry from burdensome.
  - Cd00d 5y ago
    But enough people do it for comfort that my last two cars came with remote start as standard. You're being too negative saying starting your car early is the same as taking care of a horse, which undermines your point - it makes you look anti-EV and less sincere.
  - eptcyka 5y ago
    I warm up my Pete car for engine longevity.
    - 5y ago
sonofhans 5y ago
> Sounds like you own a horse more than a car. If I have to plan my day around waking my horse up, feeding it breakfast, stopping so it can rest at a supercharger, arranging my bathroom breaks to suit its needs ... I would rather own a car. This is without a doubt the best take I’ve read on EVs. Certainly they fit many use cases, and certainly they’ll improve to fit more in the future. In the meantime, the hoops that some fans jump through to justify their suitability for tasks at which they’re inadequate are amusing.
- cogman10 5y ago
  Did you read the article? Barring a few exceptions, most EVs have 88%+ of their range in freezing cold weather. Those EVs also tended to have longer range in general.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    I read the article. A 41% loss when I need to run the heater is totally unacceptable. >> AAA found the loss in driving range could be as high as 41% with the heater on full blast.
    - cogman10 5y ago
      Here's the AAA article in question [1] Notice, that these are all 2018 or older models. Why does that matter? Because battery capacity has increased and newer models have heatpump heaters (which are roughly 4x more efficient). This is the primary difference in range in the opening info-graphic on the page. Why for lower temps some cars only lost 10% of their range while others lost 40%. But further, WHY is 40% range loss "totally unacceptable"? What is acceptable? How do you deal with range loss of ICE from overly hot weather? [1] http://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf http://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle...
      - thayne 5y ago
        > Notice, that these are all 2018 or older models I've never bought a car newer than 5 years old. And it looks like the EVs that handle cold better tend to be the more expensive models and brands. So the problem here isn't so much that no EVs work in the cold, as that it reduces the economic feasibility of using an EV for many people. > But further, WHY is 40% range loss "totally unacceptable"? Because EVs often already have smaller ranges to begin with, have fewer charging stations than gas stations, and take longer to charge, and a significant decrease in range exarcerbates those problems, and may make an EV completely impractical in some situations. Hopefully all those things improve in the future.
cogman10 5y ago
You don't stop at gas stations when you are doing road trips? You don't plug your car into a heater to make sure it will start (I assume yes because you are hitting -40C. That requires an engine block heater or housing for your "horse"). You don't take your horse to the vet every 3000 miles to give it dialysis (oil change). To heat up my Tesla, I pull up the tesla phone app and tap the "preheat" button. That's it. I keep it plugged in when it's at home (takes me less time to plug it in than it takes you to fill up your car with gas). While my tesla charges, I'm usually doing other stuff at home. It's completely neglected (the poor thing). All in all, the ONLY time I might wait additionally on my EV vs a gas car is when I go on longer road trips (450+km). That's somewhat rare. And I don't have oil changes, engine problems, etc. The only maintenance I've done are new tires, car washes, and window wiping fluid. This is with a 2018 long range model 3 with 110,000km. My tiny tesla doesn't have a "start", it is effectively always on. I've never worried that I can't put it in gear and start driving.
- krzyk 5y ago
  Why heater for engine block in -40? I haven't heard about such thing, the only issues I know is for Diesel engines in low temperatures but gasoline ones?
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    Most people still opt for block heaters in cold weather (<-20). They used to be standard on all cars sold in Canada/Alaska. I use mine when a plug is available. It keeps the engine oil from thickening, making it easier to crank the engine during start. Imho a battery heater is more effective as it increases the cranking power available to the starter. Many use both.
    - officeplant 5y ago
      Battery heaters can be fairly important at temps that low just to prevent it from an early death.
BobbyJo 5y ago
Never buy a car with a high PSI turbo then. I owned a 2010 Mazdaspeed3 and a 2016 WRX and I felt like they both always needed an oil change.
shard 5y ago
Any horse owners here who can speak up? Major differences that come to my mind are exercise requirements, socializing time, health care (grooming and vet care), stable cleaning, needing a stable at the work location. And how far can you take horses in -40c?
- officeplant 5y ago
  >socializing time I've now come to realize that part of me looks forward to having a chat with people at charging stations in 2035.
- earleybird 5y ago
  Well, my dad tells stories of their "self driving wagon". Take the wagon (or sled in the winter) in to town, do a bit of shopping (or picking up mail order goods) and head home in the evening. The horse knew the way home (in the dark even). I'm hoping some day to have a car as smart as my dads horse. :-)
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  > And how far can you take horses in -40c? I had to check, because I know Siberians don’t just stay inside all Winter in the bad old days (actually I learned from “Gift of the Raven” that siberians travel less nowadays because they can only carry so much gasoline, whereas old fashioned beasts of burden are self refueling aka eat grass under the snow) Check out this winter adapted horse, complete with antifreeze coursing through its veins: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakutian_horse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakutian_horse
gwbas1c 5y ago
Where you live, EVs only make sense if you have a very big battery. Edit: The reason to heat up an EV's battery on a cold day is for regenerative breaking. You don't have to, the car just drives a little weird until the battery heats up otherwise.
gwbas1c 5y ago
> Sounds like you own a horse more than a car Yes, long trips require more planning. That will change once high speed chargers are more common. > Sounds like you own a horse more than a car The situation is extremely different for day-to-day driving. When I owned a gas car, I had to put gas in it about once a week. Each stop at the gas station was about 10 minutes out of my way. Now I charge in my garage and I never need to go out of my way to buy gas. I also don't need to deal with oil changes. My gas car was a lot more of a "horse" than my Tesla!

gameswithgo 5y ago

An EV would also get you to work each morning without fail, unless you are 200 miles from work. It doesn't even need to start up.

sandworm101 5y ago
My nearest airport is 200miles away, 400 for the trip. I will be making that drive next week to pickup a work college. I believe that Tesla and every other lithium-using EV only rates their cars to -30c. Below that might void a warranty, a financial risk I cannot afford. And I shudder at the concept of DRM deciding to brick my car because it is "too cold to drive". That nightmare is coming at us soon. I will then be in the market for a snow machine, which are regular on major roads in my area when the weather is really bad.
- c0nfused 5y ago
  I think the current guidance is not below -30 for more than 24 hours because the battery coolant will freeze and then everything blows up. Based on your weather reporting. I would stick with ICE. As heat isn't free on an electric car in general. So, at the more extreme ends of the spectrum it will be hard to beat ICE
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    In our town (about 15,000 people, about 1/2 military-related) there are only a handful of EVs, and only two Teslas. Everyone knows who owns them. They all hibernate through winter in warm garages beside giant ICE pickup trucks. They are just fashion statements rather than 24/7/365 daily drivers. EVs are not an option for those of us who cannot afford multiple vehicles.
    - gjs278 5y ago
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
The chart in that OP only goes down to freezing. Where I live it hasn't gotten up to freezing this winter but four or five days. It's been single-digit or subzero for months. Likely that EV is not going to work here, not reliably. There's something to be said for ICE.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  They might be reliable, but with reliably poor performance. A battery-powered EV relies on chemical reactions and all chemical reactions are sensitive to temperature. Hot or cold, it will always be an issue for everyone beyond socal.
Alan_Dillman 5y ago
It certainly would need to run for a bit to thaw out the window and warm the passenger compartment. One cannot just push start and drive off in climates with actual frost and snowfall.

olyjohn 5y ago

Wow so a lot of people go out and warm their cars up before they leave for work. I have done it on days where it's not even below freezing... You're really exaggerating the amount of work it is to warm up the Tesla. And it also sounds like you're in a place where an EV doesn't make sense. They don't make sense for everybody, but that doesn't mean they aren't fine for the majority of people who drive. So don't buy an EV. I'm not sure that your argument makes sense for most people. I've never even experienced -40, or anything close, and neither have most people that I know.

sandworm101 5y ago
The difference is that people warm up their car for comfort, not necessity. At sub-zero temperatures a modern gasoline-burning car[1] doesn't need to warm up for more than a few seconds, at least once it is properly started. The only practical reason to let them warm up before moving is to get some heat into the passenger compartment. [1] The issues regarding diesel in winter is a whole other discussion. Diesel fuel is longer molecules and gets very thick in cold. Diesel cars/trucks/generators can have real issues in winter.
- frumper 5y ago
  My Tesla auto warms up every morning on a schedule. If I didn't set the schedule it's literally a button tap on from my phone. That's a far cry from burdensome.
- Cd00d 5y ago
  But enough people do it for comfort that my last two cars came with remote start as standard. You're being too negative saying starting your car early is the same as taking care of a horse, which undermines your point - it makes you look anti-EV and less sincere.
- eptcyka 5y ago
  I warm up my Pete car for engine longevity.
  - 5y ago

sonofhans 5y ago

> Sounds like you own a horse more than a car. If I have to plan my day around waking my horse up, feeding it breakfast, stopping so it can rest at a supercharger, arranging my bathroom breaks to suit its needs ... I would rather own a car. This is without a doubt the best take I’ve read on EVs. Certainly they fit many use cases, and certainly they’ll improve to fit more in the future. In the meantime, the hoops that some fans jump through to justify their suitability for tasks at which they’re inadequate are amusing.

cogman10 5y ago
Did you read the article? Barring a few exceptions, most EVs have 88%+ of their range in freezing cold weather. Those EVs also tended to have longer range in general.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  I read the article. A 41% loss when I need to run the heater is totally unacceptable. >> AAA found the loss in driving range could be as high as 41% with the heater on full blast.
  - cogman10 5y ago
    Here's the AAA article in question [1] Notice, that these are all 2018 or older models. Why does that matter? Because battery capacity has increased and newer models have heatpump heaters (which are roughly 4x more efficient). This is the primary difference in range in the opening info-graphic on the page. Why for lower temps some cars only lost 10% of their range while others lost 40%. But further, WHY is 40% range loss "totally unacceptable"? What is acceptable? How do you deal with range loss of ICE from overly hot weather? [1] http://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf http://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle...
    - thayne 5y ago
      > Notice, that these are all 2018 or older models I've never bought a car newer than 5 years old. And it looks like the EVs that handle cold better tend to be the more expensive models and brands. So the problem here isn't so much that no EVs work in the cold, as that it reduces the economic feasibility of using an EV for many people. > But further, WHY is 40% range loss "totally unacceptable"? Because EVs often already have smaller ranges to begin with, have fewer charging stations than gas stations, and take longer to charge, and a significant decrease in range exarcerbates those problems, and may make an EV completely impractical in some situations. Hopefully all those things improve in the future.

cogman10 5y ago

You don't stop at gas stations when you are doing road trips? You don't plug your car into a heater to make sure it will start (I assume yes because you are hitting -40C. That requires an engine block heater or housing for your "horse"). You don't take your horse to the vet every 3000 miles to give it dialysis (oil change). To heat up my Tesla, I pull up the tesla phone app and tap the "preheat" button. That's it. I keep it plugged in when it's at home (takes me less time to plug it in than it takes you to fill up your car with gas). While my tesla charges, I'm usually doing other stuff at home. It's completely neglected (the poor thing). All in all, the ONLY time I might wait additionally on my EV vs a gas car is when I go on longer road trips (450+km). That's somewhat rare. And I don't have oil changes, engine problems, etc. The only maintenance I've done are new tires, car washes, and window wiping fluid. This is with a 2018 long range model 3 with 110,000km. My tiny tesla doesn't have a "start", it is effectively always on. I've never worried that I can't put it in gear and start driving.

krzyk 5y ago
Why heater for engine block in -40? I haven't heard about such thing, the only issues I know is for Diesel engines in low temperatures but gasoline ones?
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Most people still opt for block heaters in cold weather (<-20). They used to be standard on all cars sold in Canada/Alaska. I use mine when a plug is available. It keeps the engine oil from thickening, making it easier to crank the engine during start. Imho a battery heater is more effective as it increases the cranking power available to the starter. Many use both.
  - officeplant 5y ago
    Battery heaters can be fairly important at temps that low just to prevent it from an early death.

BobbyJo 5y ago

Never buy a car with a high PSI turbo then. I owned a 2010 Mazdaspeed3 and a 2016 WRX and I felt like they both always needed an oil change.

shard 5y ago

Any horse owners here who can speak up? Major differences that come to my mind are exercise requirements, socializing time, health care (grooming and vet care), stable cleaning, needing a stable at the work location. And how far can you take horses in -40c?

officeplant 5y ago
>socializing time I've now come to realize that part of me looks forward to having a chat with people at charging stations in 2035.
earleybird 5y ago
Well, my dad tells stories of their "self driving wagon". Take the wagon (or sled in the winter) in to town, do a bit of shopping (or picking up mail order goods) and head home in the evening. The horse knew the way home (in the dark even). I'm hoping some day to have a car as smart as my dads horse. :-)
jazzyjackson 5y ago
> And how far can you take horses in -40c? I had to check, because I know Siberians don’t just stay inside all Winter in the bad old days (actually I learned from “Gift of the Raven” that siberians travel less nowadays because they can only carry so much gasoline, whereas old fashioned beasts of burden are self refueling aka eat grass under the snow) Check out this winter adapted horse, complete with antifreeze coursing through its veins: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakutian_horse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakutian_horse

gwbas1c 5y ago

Where you live, EVs only make sense if you have a very big battery. Edit: The reason to heat up an EV's battery on a cold day is for regenerative breaking. You don't have to, the car just drives a little weird until the battery heats up otherwise.

gwbas1c 5y ago

> Sounds like you own a horse more than a car Yes, long trips require more planning. That will change once high speed chargers are more common. > Sounds like you own a horse more than a car The situation is extremely different for day-to-day driving. When I owned a gas car, I had to put gas in it about once a week. Each stop at the gas station was about 10 minutes out of my way. Now I charge in my garage and I never need to go out of my way to buy gas. I also don't need to deal with oil changes. My gas car was a lot more of a "horse" than my Tesla!