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I was part of a team experimenting with mushroom packaging about 3 years ago. While we had quite good results material-wise, we couldn’t really make the total e

I was part of a team experimenting with mushroom packaging about 3 years ago. While we had quite good results material-wise, we couldn’t really make the total environmental equation work on smaller scales. Growing the mycelium really fast and efficiently requires quite a bit of energy input (heating, humidity controls, airflow…) and you need to source quite a few ingredients for the growth medium. I’d be curious what the total ecological impact is if all of those inputs are factored in when doing it on a large scale (like Ecovative).

samstave 5y ago
What I would love to see would be the combining of indoor cannabis farming and mycelium growth. Do you think this would be a workable symbiosis?
- brianhorakh 5y ago
  Yes, i work on exactly this now, for years, many failures. Co2 output from mushroom is the input to cannabis. Temperature differential is a real problem.
  - monetus 5y ago
    Find any mycelium that help the root systems?
    - samstave 5y ago
      AFAIK all mycelium helps root systems, from the symbiotic relation, but in indoor, hydro type grows it might be harder. What would be interesting is the combination of vertical mushroom grows and vertical hydro culture. Imagine a tube/tower of mycelium, but also allowing the cannabis to grw out of the tube/tower... and having the root systems intertwined, but the problem therein is that the diff in the mycelium being perennial as opposed to the cannabis being annual...
      - monetus 5y ago
        I've experimented with vertical farming greens and mushrooms together; figuring out the schedule for the different colors of light can be a bit of a pain, but I used LEDs. - I stacked tote bins that I had drimmeled to interlock with eachother like a greenhouse. I don't think hydro would be possible without a super specialized fungus. If you ward off infections, regular hardwood based edible mushrooms work in dirt with vegetables. The mycelium doesn't seem to particularly help though. Greens and most edible mushrooms come from different substrates. I've yet to really look, but I suspect most desirable mushrooms won't be the best mutualists. There will probably be some that are more than a little valuable in balancing a polyculture though. I really want to find those pairs and groups, like we've discovered in say oaks or orchids, where they seemed to have evolved together. Aside: Mushrooms are perennial but the mycelium doesn't always die away. And some are selfish in not so mutualistic ways too.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        elasticventures 5y ago
        the co2 from the mycelium, let it build up, then periodically cycle into your vertical farm to increase the co2 concentration -- then watch your vegetables or whatever grow bigger!
      - solomonb 5y ago
        Nitpick, but there are certainly parasitic fungi which do not have a symbiotic relationship with plants. Also only some fungi have a mycorrhizal relationship with plants. Most are saprophytic meaning they decompose dead organic material. This is of course extremely beneficial and required for a closed ecosystem, but the symbiotic relationship isn't as direct as mycorrhizal fungi and is really part of a much more complex network of soil organisms that all need to be at play. Simply introducing a saprophytic fungi to your soil will probably not result in any benefits to your indoor cannabis garden.
      - elasticventures 5y ago
        My understanding is that Mycelium mostly helps with nutrient motility, moving them across roots of the plants. Potentially increasing bioavailability. Some Eukaryotes are also reported to my mycellial connection with the plant (i.e. merge with the plants) some sort of forest underweb sort of thing, but I think that would be very difficult to reproduce insitu. Eukaryotes are amazing but also so diverse they defy classification.
  - samstave 5y ago
    I would like to know more, I have worked in Cannabis (built out one of the few type 7 extraction labs in California... my neighbor and friend is the DA for the DCC in California, and I have close contact with some of the largest outdoor growers in the state... I'd be interested in hearing more and figuring out how to work more on this topic.
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    What is the temperature differential problem? (I think many mushrooms are pretty happy fruiting at ~70F room temperature, as is cannabis. Is it that the grow lights fight the humidity needs of the mushrooms? Or do the species of mushrooms you're using have different temperature needs? Or the cannabis grows faster as temperature increases? I've only worked with shiitake and oyster, and got poor results with one lions mane attempt so... definitely not an expert)
    - AngryData 5y ago
      I just want to add, if people are upgrading to LEDs they will have a drop in yield unless they raise room temperatures to 80F or more so there is still a temperature differential, although to me it seems relatively minor especially using heat exchangers. The high efficiency of LED grow lights means leaf temperatures are much lower so room temperature must go up to compensate.
      - cwkoss 5y ago
        I wonder if the root zone needs the warmth too, or if its just the aerial parts of the plant that needs the warmth for optimal growth. Maybe plastic with holes for each stem could be used to insulate the aerial airspace from the root airspace and then a small heatpump could make that 10F differential with relatively low power cost.
      - samstave 5y ago
        Super interesting. I wonder what the baseline is btwn the two ; How dependent on heat is the "fruitful" nature of the plant vs the subsitance livability of the plant? i.e. Min temp for survival vs min temp to fruit and the balance between... What is the coldest one can keep a plant while maintaining max fruiting output?
      - samstave 5y ago
        holy crap. Just hear me out ; --- What if the human genome code diffs based on pro-longed temp differentials in host biology (meaning if the in-utero mother was in a prolonged colder climate, which altered the passed on DNA) So"cooking" dna is a real thing, May one be able to "calcify" information into DNA based on temp? Science fiction galore!
somethoughts 5y ago
An interesting application might be the grow media for hydroponic farms. While visiting an aquaponics farm it seemed the grow media was styrofoam based which didn't seem quite right. An organic based solution that's also biodegradable would seem much better/safer.
- belval 5y ago
  It might depend on the exploitation, but most raft methods (floating styrofoam board) I've seen will reuse the board so it's really not as bad as it seems. As for the safe part, the concentration of plastics in the nutrient solution might be a tad higher, but the plant will only pick up a small fraction or none of it so there aren't any big health concerns on that front.
  - terr-dav 5y ago
    In the same way that food will only pick up a small fraction of teflon from a nonstick pan, so there shouldn't be any big health concerns?
    - rudolph9 5y ago
      Same way there’s a small amount of cyanide in most apple seeds
    - belval 5y ago
      Not really no, more in the sense that plants growing in a field with more lead (not lead contaminated, just above-average) might pickup a bit more lead from the soil and still be good for human consumption.
    - 2III7 5y ago
      Teflon is toxic when vaporized (>300°C). Solid teflon is nontoxic.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
meatmanek 5y ago
The Opulo / LumenPNP folks talked about this in their video on packaging their pick-and-place machine[1]. They mention that it takes a month to grow the packaging, so you'd need a mold for each unit of product you plan to ship in a month. 1. https://youtu.be/Ku4Wvu6LsrU?t=379 https://youtu.be/Ku4Wvu6LsrU?t=379
- randyrand 5y ago
  Cool to see this company gaining more attention!
- ghostly_s 5y ago
  This video has literally no content about mycelium packaging aside from the one sentence you summarized.
- piyh 5y ago
  mould mold
wy35 5y ago
> and you need to source quite a few ingredients for the growth medium That’s entirely dependent on the species. Oysters can be grown entirely on non-supplemented sawdust. Supplements can be just wheat bran or soy hulls, and maybe gypsum or CaCO3. That’s a short ingredient list and easily sourced from your local Tractor Supply.
- telotortium 5y ago
  You're leaving out > Growing the mycelium really fast and efficiently requires quite a bit of energy input (heating, humidity controls, airflow…) Given the impact of climate change, it's not really worth saving a little bit of oil to make the plastic (which, since it's not biodegradable, will probably not contribute to increasing greenhouse gasses) if you have to burn more oil, which will produce CO2, to make the mushroom-based packaging.
  - LordDragonfang 5y ago
    The fact that plastic isn't biodegradable is one of the main reasons there's a push for alternate packaging materials. Plastic overuse is a major ecological concern, to the point that some people are positioning it as an issue on par with global warming, and one we have time to work on fixing. In other words, avoiding plastic is the whole point here.
    - solomonb 5y ago
      Yet using mycelieum for packing materials requires lots of disposable plastic to convert something already suitable for a packing material (sawdust) into a different material suitable for packing material with a little green washing.
      - Retric 5y ago
        Sawdust is fairly heavy (13 lb/ft³) and messy to be used as a general packing material. Foam peanut by comparison are about 0.2 lb/ft³.
giantg2 5y ago
If it's OK, can you explain the tech related roles at the company you were at? I think some sort of argo/bio science company would be interesting to work at.

samstave 5y ago

What I would love to see would be the combining of indoor cannabis farming and mycelium growth. Do you think this would be a workable symbiosis?

brianhorakh 5y ago
Yes, i work on exactly this now, for years, many failures. Co2 output from mushroom is the input to cannabis. Temperature differential is a real problem.
- monetus 5y ago
  Find any mycelium that help the root systems?
  - samstave 5y ago
    AFAIK all mycelium helps root systems, from the symbiotic relation, but in indoor, hydro type grows it might be harder. What would be interesting is the combination of vertical mushroom grows and vertical hydro culture. Imagine a tube/tower of mycelium, but also allowing the cannabis to grw out of the tube/tower... and having the root systems intertwined, but the problem therein is that the diff in the mycelium being perennial as opposed to the cannabis being annual...
    - monetus 5y ago
      I've experimented with vertical farming greens and mushrooms together; figuring out the schedule for the different colors of light can be a bit of a pain, but I used LEDs. - I stacked tote bins that I had drimmeled to interlock with eachother like a greenhouse. I don't think hydro would be possible without a super specialized fungus. If you ward off infections, regular hardwood based edible mushrooms work in dirt with vegetables. The mycelium doesn't seem to particularly help though. Greens and most edible mushrooms come from different substrates. I've yet to really look, but I suspect most desirable mushrooms won't be the best mutualists. There will probably be some that are more than a little valuable in balancing a polyculture though. I really want to find those pairs and groups, like we've discovered in say oaks or orchids, where they seemed to have evolved together. Aside: Mushrooms are perennial but the mycelium doesn't always die away. And some are selfish in not so mutualistic ways too.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - elasticventures 5y ago
        the co2 from the mycelium, let it build up, then periodically cycle into your vertical farm to increase the co2 concentration -- then watch your vegetables or whatever grow bigger!
    - solomonb 5y ago
      Nitpick, but there are certainly parasitic fungi which do not have a symbiotic relationship with plants. Also only some fungi have a mycorrhizal relationship with plants. Most are saprophytic meaning they decompose dead organic material. This is of course extremely beneficial and required for a closed ecosystem, but the symbiotic relationship isn't as direct as mycorrhizal fungi and is really part of a much more complex network of soil organisms that all need to be at play. Simply introducing a saprophytic fungi to your soil will probably not result in any benefits to your indoor cannabis garden.
    - elasticventures 5y ago
      My understanding is that Mycelium mostly helps with nutrient motility, moving them across roots of the plants. Potentially increasing bioavailability. Some Eukaryotes are also reported to my mycellial connection with the plant (i.e. merge with the plants) some sort of forest underweb sort of thing, but I think that would be very difficult to reproduce insitu. Eukaryotes are amazing but also so diverse they defy classification.
- samstave 5y ago
  I would like to know more, I have worked in Cannabis (built out one of the few type 7 extraction labs in California... my neighbor and friend is the DA for the DCC in California, and I have close contact with some of the largest outdoor growers in the state... I'd be interested in hearing more and figuring out how to work more on this topic.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  What is the temperature differential problem? (I think many mushrooms are pretty happy fruiting at ~70F room temperature, as is cannabis. Is it that the grow lights fight the humidity needs of the mushrooms? Or do the species of mushrooms you're using have different temperature needs? Or the cannabis grows faster as temperature increases? I've only worked with shiitake and oyster, and got poor results with one lions mane attempt so... definitely not an expert)
  - AngryData 5y ago
    I just want to add, if people are upgrading to LEDs they will have a drop in yield unless they raise room temperatures to 80F or more so there is still a temperature differential, although to me it seems relatively minor especially using heat exchangers. The high efficiency of LED grow lights means leaf temperatures are much lower so room temperature must go up to compensate.
    - cwkoss 5y ago
      I wonder if the root zone needs the warmth too, or if its just the aerial parts of the plant that needs the warmth for optimal growth. Maybe plastic with holes for each stem could be used to insulate the aerial airspace from the root airspace and then a small heatpump could make that 10F differential with relatively low power cost.
    - samstave 5y ago
      Super interesting. I wonder what the baseline is btwn the two ; How dependent on heat is the "fruitful" nature of the plant vs the subsitance livability of the plant? i.e. Min temp for survival vs min temp to fruit and the balance between... What is the coldest one can keep a plant while maintaining max fruiting output?
    - samstave 5y ago
      holy crap. Just hear me out ; --- What if the human genome code diffs based on pro-longed temp differentials in host biology (meaning if the in-utero mother was in a prolonged colder climate, which altered the passed on DNA) So"cooking" dna is a real thing, May one be able to "calcify" information into DNA based on temp? Science fiction galore!

somethoughts 5y ago

An interesting application might be the grow media for hydroponic farms. While visiting an aquaponics farm it seemed the grow media was styrofoam based which didn't seem quite right. An organic based solution that's also biodegradable would seem much better/safer.

belval 5y ago
It might depend on the exploitation, but most raft methods (floating styrofoam board) I've seen will reuse the board so it's really not as bad as it seems. As for the safe part, the concentration of plastics in the nutrient solution might be a tad higher, but the plant will only pick up a small fraction or none of it so there aren't any big health concerns on that front.
- terr-dav 5y ago
  In the same way that food will only pick up a small fraction of teflon from a nonstick pan, so there shouldn't be any big health concerns?
  - rudolph9 5y ago
    Same way there’s a small amount of cyanide in most apple seeds
  - belval 5y ago
    Not really no, more in the sense that plants growing in a field with more lead (not lead contaminated, just above-average) might pickup a bit more lead from the soil and still be good for human consumption.
  - 2III7 5y ago
    Teflon is toxic when vaporized (>300°C). Solid teflon is nontoxic.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

meatmanek 5y ago

The Opulo / LumenPNP folks talked about this in their video on packaging their pick-and-place machine[1]. They mention that it takes a month to grow the packaging, so you'd need a mold for each unit of product you plan to ship in a month. 1. https://youtu.be/Ku4Wvu6LsrU?t=379 https://youtu.be/Ku4Wvu6LsrU?t=379

randyrand 5y ago
Cool to see this company gaining more attention!
ghostly_s 5y ago
This video has literally no content about mycelium packaging aside from the one sentence you summarized.
piyh 5y ago
mould mold

wy35 5y ago

> and you need to source quite a few ingredients for the growth medium That’s entirely dependent on the species. Oysters can be grown entirely on non-supplemented sawdust. Supplements can be just wheat bran or soy hulls, and maybe gypsum or CaCO3. That’s a short ingredient list and easily sourced from your local Tractor Supply.

telotortium 5y ago
You're leaving out > Growing the mycelium really fast and efficiently requires quite a bit of energy input (heating, humidity controls, airflow…) Given the impact of climate change, it's not really worth saving a little bit of oil to make the plastic (which, since it's not biodegradable, will probably not contribute to increasing greenhouse gasses) if you have to burn more oil, which will produce CO2, to make the mushroom-based packaging.
- LordDragonfang 5y ago
  The fact that plastic isn't biodegradable is one of the main reasons there's a push for alternate packaging materials. Plastic overuse is a major ecological concern, to the point that some people are positioning it as an issue on par with global warming, and one we have time to work on fixing. In other words, avoiding plastic is the whole point here.
  - solomonb 5y ago
    Yet using mycelieum for packing materials requires lots of disposable plastic to convert something already suitable for a packing material (sawdust) into a different material suitable for packing material with a little green washing.
    - Retric 5y ago
      Sawdust is fairly heavy (13 lb/ft³) and messy to be used as a general packing material. Foam peanut by comparison are about 0.2 lb/ft³.

giantg2 5y ago

If it's OK, can you explain the tech related roles at the company you were at? I think some sort of argo/bio science company would be interesting to work at.