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Contrarian opinion: the class system in Britain is the legacy of an ethnic hierarchy which has (1) matured and become a little fuzzy over the course of a thousa

Contrarian opinion: the class system in Britain is the legacy of an ethnic hierarchy which has (1) matured and become a little fuzzy over the course of a thousand years, and (2) is obscured by the fact all ethnic groups are white. Normans at the top of the hierarchy (Queenie is a descendant of William the Bastard), Angles, Saxons, Vikings in the middle, Celts at the bottom. This ethnic difference contributes to quite different class cultures. I read this is relevant to the US, as Celts by and large settled the Appalachian uplands where soils were poor, and the population of the mountains has maintained a distinct Celtic culture and position in the US class hierarchy. Additional aside, UK weird hostility to red heads (often remarked upon by visitors) is in fact legacy hostility to Celts.

starwind 5y ago
See "Surnames and social mobility in England, 1170–2012" https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/60593/1/__lse.ac.uk_storage_LIBRARY_Secondary_libfile_shared_repository_Content_Cummins,%20N_Surnames_Cummins_Surnames_2015.pdf https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/60593/1/__lse.ac.uk_storage_LIBRAR...
- dash2 5y ago
  Or the book The Son Also Rises. (All Greg Clark’s book titles are Hemingway puns.)
brimble 5y ago
> I read this is relevant to the US, as Celts by and large settled the Appalachian uplands where soils were poor, and the population of the mountains has maintained a distinct Celtic culture and position in the US class hierarchy. These are largely the "Scots-Irish", as we call them in the US. They originate as the Borderers, that is, the lowland folks who lived on the border of Scotland and England (an effectively lawless region for a long stretch of time). At some point a bunch of them were shipped off to Ireland, then a bunch of those moved to the US. Hence, "Scots-Irish". The history of their migration paints a picture of a people disliked basically everywhere. Kicked out of the Border country, then kicked out of Ireland, then kicked out of Pennsylvania, before finally settling in Appalachia (and being hated there by almost everyone outside that country—it's still socially acceptable to say all kinds of horrible things about them). We (I'm very, very much of that "stock" on one side of my family) seem to be some real bastards.
- Biologist123 5y ago
  Thanks, very interesting. Wikipedia has a good page on Scots-Irish, with a suggestion lowland Scots were originally Irish gaels. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans
- jessaustin 5y ago
  To be clear, (we) Scots-Irish are indeed descended from Celts, both Gaels and Picts. I doubt any of us have only that background, however.
- cafard 5y ago
  Kicked out of Pennsylvania? Did someone forget to serve the eviction notice on Simon Cameron, James Buchanan, James Laughlin, etc.? Those who settled in Ulster were looking for land (confiscated from the Irish). Those who came to America were looking for land. If they moved west and southwest, it was largely for more and perhaps better land. Weep not for the Scotch-Irish. They've done pretty well out of America. (I have Scotch-Irish ancestry, traced by an uncle back to Bushmills in Ulster.)
barry-cotter 5y ago
This seems unlikely. Ethnic groups are cultures, much more than associations of genes. African-Americans are ~80% West African ~20% British by ancestry but there’s a lot more British in their culture than West African. Absent Indian jati style strict endogamy genetic distinctiveness will disappear quickly even with low levels of exogamy. Jatis in the same village have levels of genetic distance similar to Sweden-Sicily. Those are people whose last common ancestor was 1000-1500 years ago. There’s nothing like that anywhere in Europe. East Anglia is the English region with highest modern Germanic ancestry, 30%. Samples from graves from Anglo-Saxon invasions suggest almost 100% population replacement. That’s consistent with panmixia. As to red hair, attitudes change quickly. Kick a ginger day started with South Park.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  >Kick a ginger day started with South Park. I think the many legends/myths/stereotypes/fearmongering about red-headed warriors across Europe would beg to differ there. Maybe there have been intervals where red-headedness was a positive attribute, but I think the general historical record points to the opposite.

starwind 5y ago

See "Surnames and social mobility in England, 1170–2012" https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/60593/1/__lse.ac.uk_storage_LIBRARY_Secondary_libfile_shared_repository_Content_Cummins,%20N_Surnames_Cummins_Surnames_2015.pdf https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/60593/1/__lse.ac.uk_storage_LIBRAR...

dash2 5y ago
Or the book The Son Also Rises. (All Greg Clark’s book titles are Hemingway puns.)

brimble 5y ago

> I read this is relevant to the US, as Celts by and large settled the Appalachian uplands where soils were poor, and the population of the mountains has maintained a distinct Celtic culture and position in the US class hierarchy. These are largely the "Scots-Irish", as we call them in the US. They originate as the Borderers, that is, the lowland folks who lived on the border of Scotland and England (an effectively lawless region for a long stretch of time). At some point a bunch of them were shipped off to Ireland, then a bunch of those moved to the US. Hence, "Scots-Irish". The history of their migration paints a picture of a people disliked basically everywhere. Kicked out of the Border country, then kicked out of Ireland, then kicked out of Pennsylvania, before finally settling in Appalachia (and being hated there by almost everyone outside that country—it's still socially acceptable to say all kinds of horrible things about them). We (I'm very, very much of that "stock" on one side of my family) seem to be some real bastards.

Biologist123 5y ago
Thanks, very interesting. Wikipedia has a good page on Scots-Irish, with a suggestion lowland Scots were originally Irish gaels. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans
jessaustin 5y ago
To be clear, (we) Scots-Irish are indeed descended from Celts, both Gaels and Picts. I doubt any of us have only that background, however.
cafard 5y ago
Kicked out of Pennsylvania? Did someone forget to serve the eviction notice on Simon Cameron, James Buchanan, James Laughlin, etc.? Those who settled in Ulster were looking for land (confiscated from the Irish). Those who came to America were looking for land. If they moved west and southwest, it was largely for more and perhaps better land. Weep not for the Scotch-Irish. They've done pretty well out of America. (I have Scotch-Irish ancestry, traced by an uncle back to Bushmills in Ulster.)

barry-cotter 5y ago

This seems unlikely. Ethnic groups are cultures, much more than associations of genes. African-Americans are ~80% West African ~20% British by ancestry but there’s a lot more British in their culture than West African. Absent Indian jati style strict endogamy genetic distinctiveness will disappear quickly even with low levels of exogamy. Jatis in the same village have levels of genetic distance similar to Sweden-Sicily. Those are people whose last common ancestor was 1000-1500 years ago. There’s nothing like that anywhere in Europe. East Anglia is the English region with highest modern Germanic ancestry, 30%. Samples from graves from Anglo-Saxon invasions suggest almost 100% population replacement. That’s consistent with panmixia. As to red hair, attitudes change quickly. Kick a ginger day started with South Park.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
>Kick a ginger day started with South Park. I think the many legends/myths/stereotypes/fearmongering about red-headed warriors across Europe would beg to differ there. Maybe there have been intervals where red-headedness was a positive attribute, but I think the general historical record points to the opposite.