8 ms·

The US always has had groups that threatened the racial status hierarchy under surveillance. Whether it's COINTELPRO or the Mississippi Sovereignty Commission,

The US always has had groups that threatened the racial status hierarchy under surveillance. Whether it's COINTELPRO or the Mississippi Sovereignty Commission, this type of surveillance is a core part of American policing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Sovereignty_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Sovereignty_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

mistrial9 5y ago
right - and the US has also always had people who were committed to the opposite. Its a big place with a lot of people.
- cwmoreiras 5y ago
  Completely disingenuous. This is about the US intelligence apparatus being used against domestic dissidents. Saying "well yeah but there are also domestic dissidents" misses the point entirely
  - mistrial9 5y ago
    well as a USA citizen, from multiple generations of supporting a plurality of views, it is distressing to see the worst behavior of police and FBI, commented upon as if "that is the way the USA is!" .. and strictly from a word-meaning point of view "disingenuous" means I am trying to deceive or knowingly making false statements, which is not the case at all.. we are likely to agree on several points here.. hard to make comments that do not have enough disclaimers, on these large topics
    - etchalon 5y ago
      I mean, if our FBI and police have consistently behaved a certain way than that is literally "the way it is the USA".
    - getcrunk 5y ago
      When it comes to issues of life and death or liberty, we should use the worse case as the measure. For example: oh this medical intervention kills people 15% of the time. No matter what that can never be understated.
    - newbie789 5y ago
    - tylersmith 5y ago
      That absolutely is the way the United States is, time and time again. That fact that many of us people aren't malicious doesn't change that.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > this is about the US intelligence apparatus being used against domestic dissidents This article is about local police surveillance. Not the U.S. intelligence apparatus.
    - sjg007 5y ago
      The FBI is/was involved as were the fusion centers which were originally setup as part of a joint taskforce to combat terrorism. The fusion centers were developed to integrate US intelligence with local policing.
    - KennyBlanken 5y ago
      NYPD, a "local" city police department, has a huge terrorism counterintelligence department, one that surveils internationally and duplicates a lot of the federal intelligence infrastructure.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        And even has its own "black site" in NE Manhattan.
  - meatsauce 5y ago
- getcrunk 5y ago
  Do u have any proof to substantiate that in the upper echelons of power? For example a document or memo being critical of government overreach. Maybe some one being critical of cointelpro or prism Further, ur comment is a false equivalency. The guy you are responding is is obviously referring to groups of people in power positions. And you seem to respond with the group the general populace
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Would that be enough? I show you one document from a position of power within the government criticizing government overreach, you would then accept OPs position? Or would you just ask for another one, and then another one, and then another one?
    - getcrunk 5y ago
      Well one would be a start. Let's try that first. I know ur being rhetorical, but from an equivalent seat of power too pls
      - oh_sigh 5y ago
        I'm not interested in doing your research for you, especially without any clear indication that it will have any effect on your viewpoints.
mbostleman 5y ago
I think the problem with these narratives is that "protester" and "groups that threaten the racial status hierarchy" get casually mixed in with people who burn down buildings, loot businesses, and otherwise destroy cities. The former need to be protected by the police so that they can express their views. The latter need to be apprehended, charged, and tried. In order to have a rational discussion, these classes of people need to be separated in the discussion. The implication is that the police are out to get the former. But what portion of the police's motivation is driven by the latter?
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  What's being burned down as of late in the last month? Nothing, but these surveillance programs persist. Everyone complains about the riots but never the systems that bring them about. And they never explain that if riots are counterproductive, how come the problem persisted when there were no riots? As a wise man once said, people always seem to be more devoted to "order" than justice and prefer a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice.
  - mbostleman 5y ago
    To be clear, I am not defending the action of the police, only the logic of the implication that the police are unjustly conspiring to limit free speech and otherwise peaceful protest. >>What's being burned down as of late in the last month?>> I would suggest that that is pretty much the definition of being proactive. There was violence in the past, quite a bit, and maybe now actions are being taken to head it off in the future. >>Nothing, but these surveillance programs persist.>> Yes because it happened in the past. >>Everyone complains about the riots but never the systems that bring them about.>> "the systems that bring them about"? This is vague. What systems? Assuming we could parse out exactly what you're talking about, are you suggesting that the violence and destruction of private and public property is justified because the "the systems" have a problem?
    - vkou 5y ago
sacrosancty 5y ago
What racial status hierarchy? You're comparing it to something that was for supporting segregation. That's nothing to do with this.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  I'm comparing it to the pro-Jim Crow systems because they are "a long time ago", but are the same thing we're doing today. And it very much has something to do with this as they actors and igniting causes are pretty much unchanged from that era.

mistrial9 5y ago

right - and the US has also always had people who were committed to the opposite. Its a big place with a lot of people.

cwmoreiras 5y ago
Completely disingenuous. This is about the US intelligence apparatus being used against domestic dissidents. Saying "well yeah but there are also domestic dissidents" misses the point entirely
- mistrial9 5y ago
  well as a USA citizen, from multiple generations of supporting a plurality of views, it is distressing to see the worst behavior of police and FBI, commented upon as if "that is the way the USA is!" .. and strictly from a word-meaning point of view "disingenuous" means I am trying to deceive or knowingly making false statements, which is not the case at all.. we are likely to agree on several points here.. hard to make comments that do not have enough disclaimers, on these large topics
  - etchalon 5y ago
    I mean, if our FBI and police have consistently behaved a certain way than that is literally "the way it is the USA".
  - getcrunk 5y ago
    When it comes to issues of life and death or liberty, we should use the worse case as the measure. For example: oh this medical intervention kills people 15% of the time. No matter what that can never be understated.
  - newbie789 5y ago
  - tylersmith 5y ago
    That absolutely is the way the United States is, time and time again. That fact that many of us people aren't malicious doesn't change that.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > this is about the US intelligence apparatus being used against domestic dissidents This article is about local police surveillance. Not the U.S. intelligence apparatus.
  - sjg007 5y ago
    The FBI is/was involved as were the fusion centers which were originally setup as part of a joint taskforce to combat terrorism. The fusion centers were developed to integrate US intelligence with local policing.
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    NYPD, a "local" city police department, has a huge terrorism counterintelligence department, one that surveils internationally and duplicates a lot of the federal intelligence infrastructure.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      And even has its own "black site" in NE Manhattan.
- meatsauce 5y ago
getcrunk 5y ago
Do u have any proof to substantiate that in the upper echelons of power? For example a document or memo being critical of government overreach. Maybe some one being critical of cointelpro or prism Further, ur comment is a false equivalency. The guy you are responding is is obviously referring to groups of people in power positions. And you seem to respond with the group the general populace
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Would that be enough? I show you one document from a position of power within the government criticizing government overreach, you would then accept OPs position? Or would you just ask for another one, and then another one, and then another one?
  - getcrunk 5y ago
    Well one would be a start. Let's try that first. I know ur being rhetorical, but from an equivalent seat of power too pls
    - oh_sigh 5y ago
      I'm not interested in doing your research for you, especially without any clear indication that it will have any effect on your viewpoints.

mbostleman 5y ago

I think the problem with these narratives is that "protester" and "groups that threaten the racial status hierarchy" get casually mixed in with people who burn down buildings, loot businesses, and otherwise destroy cities. The former need to be protected by the police so that they can express their views. The latter need to be apprehended, charged, and tried. In order to have a rational discussion, these classes of people need to be separated in the discussion. The implication is that the police are out to get the former. But what portion of the police's motivation is driven by the latter?

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
What's being burned down as of late in the last month? Nothing, but these surveillance programs persist. Everyone complains about the riots but never the systems that bring them about. And they never explain that if riots are counterproductive, how come the problem persisted when there were no riots? As a wise man once said, people always seem to be more devoted to "order" than justice and prefer a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice.
- mbostleman 5y ago
  To be clear, I am not defending the action of the police, only the logic of the implication that the police are unjustly conspiring to limit free speech and otherwise peaceful protest. >>What's being burned down as of late in the last month?>> I would suggest that that is pretty much the definition of being proactive. There was violence in the past, quite a bit, and maybe now actions are being taken to head it off in the future. >>Nothing, but these surveillance programs persist.>> Yes because it happened in the past. >>Everyone complains about the riots but never the systems that bring them about.>> "the systems that bring them about"? This is vague. What systems? Assuming we could parse out exactly what you're talking about, are you suggesting that the violence and destruction of private and public property is justified because the "the systems" have a problem?
  - vkou 5y ago

sacrosancty 5y ago

What racial status hierarchy? You're comparing it to something that was for supporting segregation. That's nothing to do with this.

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
I'm comparing it to the pro-Jim Crow systems because they are "a long time ago", but are the same thing we're doing today. And it very much has something to do with this as they actors and igniting causes are pretty much unchanged from that era.