6 ms·

Russia Makes Calling Ukraine War an 'Invasion' a Criminal Offense

45 points by awb 5y ago

ukraineally 5y ago
Shrug? Russia can do whatever they like to their people. Not our place to tell them what's right or wrong in governing their own people. Our problem is the unjustified invasion of Ukraine. I look at recent history and many Arabic people rose up against their governments. Those people are a strong people and they did it despite high risk of throwing their civilization into civil war or worse. Canadians have been there to help refugees from those torn countries each time. We will be there to help Ukraine just as we did for Syrians. As for Russia, we are done being lied to by them. We don't need any interaction with them anymore. They are completely blocked for the immoral and unethical invasion.
- nsv 5y ago
  >Russia can do whatever they like to their people. This is a callous viewpoint. My heart goes out to the Russian citizens living in an effective dictatorship.
  - ukraineally 5y ago
    >This is a callous viewpoint. My heart goes out to the Russian citizens living in an effective dictatorship. You call me callous, that's fine. It would seem others agree with you as I'm quite downvoted. I have a surprising number of Russian interests like Chess. The Russian chess community rejected this war. We have to remember that our liberal democratic way isn't the only way. It is not our place to tell other countries how to run their countries. That is up to the Russian people to decide. Do they agree with Putin and if not, are they as strong as the Arabic people? Will they overthrow Putin?
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      > our liberal democratic way isn't the only way. ... are they as strong as the Arabic people? You seem to be suggesting that instead of elections, people can decide who their leader is by having a civil war instead. I don't think it is chauvinism to prefer a system where fewer people have to die to effect political change over one where inevitably many more people die.
      - ukraineally 5y ago
        >You seem to be suggesting that instead of elections, people can decide who their leader is by having a civil war instead. That's not my position at all. You cut context. >I don't think it is chauvinism to prefer a system where fewer people have to die to effect political change over one where inevitably many more people die. You and I agree here. Would you say Russia has free and fair elections? Their election only months ago did provide a supermajority of seats. If yes, would you agree than the average Russian supports Putin and the war?
        dang 5y ago
        Since this account has been using HN exclusively for political and ideological battle, I've banned it. We ban such accounts, regardless of what they're battling for, because they destroy what this site is supposed to be. Please do not create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - throwerofstone 5y ago
    - jokethrowaway 5y ago
      I don't live in Russia. Even if I disagree with my government (and believe me, I do) I don't really have an option of starting a civil war. If I do and I'm successful my livelihood will be at risk, my society will be a mess, my house and the currency in which I earn money will devalue. Unless I am poor and destitute, a civil war will never be an option that makes sense. Voting a different candidate is unlikely to effect any change. Politicians change tune once they are in power (eg. Biden and his promises to forget student loans) and a lot of views are not represented in candidates. I still don't see any reasons to be blamed for what my government does. And I don't blame the Russians for what Putin is doing, I'm sickened by the amount of hate Russians are getting (especially the ones living abroad): a lot of them have been trying to escape Russia for decades and only the richest and most skilled are able to do so.
      - awb 5y ago
        Heads of State as individuals are not any stronger, smarter or better than the rest of us. They become stronger and more powerful because of their support system. If you participate in a system, you are propping it up to at least some degree. Your philosophy sounds like a dictator’s sweet spot. Lie, cheat, steal, intimidate, coerce, punish, etc. as much as possible, but not to the point where the people want to do anything about it. Make them feel disconnected, powerless and dependent on you. Present yourself as their protector, their savior, the only one between you and a world that wants to destroy the things important to them: their family, their job, their culture, etc. So yeah no one citizen is directly responsible for their leader’s actions, but we’re all responsible to some extent for our country’s actions if we’re not resisting them effectively. You don’t always have to kill to resist. Some people start an underground newspaper. Others collaborate with foreign governments. Others practice civil disobedience. Others flee the country. Others make art and comedy that helps turn popular sentiment. Others practice economic boycotts. There are lots of ways to resist if you’re willing. But you can’t be neutral on a moving train.
  - ecf 5y ago
    Russian citizens are what allow the dictatorship to stay in power. If they really didn’t like Putin, they’d be able to get rid of him.
frabbit 5y ago
This coupled with the jail sentences for "disinformation" are predictable in autocracies like Russia. They desire to shutdown information and steer their subject populations into the path of correct thinking. Very disturbing to see the EU following down this path with the censorship of RussiaToday and other Russian propaganda outfits. As a citizen of a democracy it is essential that I have the right to access and evaluate all opinions. Even those which I find abhorrent.
- djbebs 5y ago
  The opposite is happening in the EU, where people are committing a crime if they hold the russian stance.
  - frabbit 5y ago
    Two things on that: 1) that was somewhat my point: so-called liberal democracies are increasingly censoring and distributing information. Exactly the Orwellian-dystopia many of us fear. 2) If we are talking about the Czech and Slovak examples posted the other day¹ I doubt the Czech authorities, if correctly reported (they seem like extra-ordinary over-reach to me, so much so that I wondered if they were Russian psyops to make the EU look undemocratic and authoritarian), have a legal leg to stand on. The laws seem to refer to war-time. It's part of an attempt to threaten people to shut up or else. I was tempted to see this as a flare-up of anti-democratic thinking from a state long run by a Stalinist political class and only recently (2004) acceded to the EU. Like Poland and Hungary there remain serious questions about the commitment to democratic principles of such states. But then I checked myself and noted that this was unfair as the EU has issued no formal condemnation of this censorship and the public appetite for being spoon fed by their betters seems high. To be clear: Russia is committing a war crime in invading Ukraine and must withdraw. We must support the Ukranian people without allowing the authoritarians in our own societies to destroy the very values we claim to uphold. No censorship. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30545186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30545186
    - frabbit 5y ago
Lammy 5y ago
Just use the other i-word like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_U...
- awb 5y ago
  There was a Russian blogger who swapped ‘invasion’ for ‘TOTALLY PEACEFUL MISSION’ or something similar. I don’t think they’ll be able to persuade a Russian judge, but it’s interesting to see how people are trying to get around this.
tguvot 5y ago
i made a translation of official RIA new feed a couple of days worth to English to show what official media looks like in Russia right now https://pastebin.com/2JvLre8d https://pastebin.com/2JvLre8d Edit: there was country wide school lesson to explain to children operation in Ukraine. This is material for teachers to assist with Q&A post lesson https://meduza.io/feature/2022/03/03/kogda-ty-vstupish-v-sovsem-uzh-vzrosluyu-zhizn-vse-uzhe-ulyazhetsya https://meduza.io/feature/2022/03/03/kogda-ty-vstupish-v-sov...
- awb 5y ago
  Interesting. Looks like they’re embracing the sanction news and boosting Maduro’s views. But amazing to see 0 headlines about Russian advances in Ukraine.
  - tguvot 5y ago
    The official news talking mostly about LNR/DNR armies advancing. Russian military performing only surgical strikes against military targets

45 points by awb 5y ago

Shrug? Russia can do whatever they like to their people. Not our place to tell them what's right or wrong in governing their own people. Our problem is the unjustified invasion of Ukraine. I look at recent history and many Arabic people rose up against their governments. Those people are a strong people and they did it despite high risk of throwing their civilization into civil war or worse. Canadians have been there to help refugees from those torn countries each time. We will be there to help Ukraine just as we did for Syrians. As for Russia, we are done being lied to by them. We don't need any interaction with them anymore. They are completely blocked for the immoral and unethical invasion.

nsv 5y ago
>Russia can do whatever they like to their people. This is a callous viewpoint. My heart goes out to the Russian citizens living in an effective dictatorship.
- ukraineally 5y ago
  >This is a callous viewpoint. My heart goes out to the Russian citizens living in an effective dictatorship. You call me callous, that's fine. It would seem others agree with you as I'm quite downvoted. I have a surprising number of Russian interests like Chess. The Russian chess community rejected this war. We have to remember that our liberal democratic way isn't the only way. It is not our place to tell other countries how to run their countries. That is up to the Russian people to decide. Do they agree with Putin and if not, are they as strong as the Arabic people? Will they overthrow Putin?
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > our liberal democratic way isn't the only way. ... are they as strong as the Arabic people? You seem to be suggesting that instead of elections, people can decide who their leader is by having a civil war instead. I don't think it is chauvinism to prefer a system where fewer people have to die to effect political change over one where inevitably many more people die.
    - ukraineally 5y ago
      >You seem to be suggesting that instead of elections, people can decide who their leader is by having a civil war instead. That's not my position at all. You cut context. >I don't think it is chauvinism to prefer a system where fewer people have to die to effect political change over one where inevitably many more people die. You and I agree here. Would you say Russia has free and fair elections? Their election only months ago did provide a supermajority of seats. If yes, would you agree than the average Russian supports Putin and the war?
      - dang 5y ago
        Since this account has been using HN exclusively for political and ideological battle, I've banned it. We ban such accounts, regardless of what they're battling for, because they destroy what this site is supposed to be. Please do not create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - throwerofstone 5y ago
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    I don't live in Russia. Even if I disagree with my government (and believe me, I do) I don't really have an option of starting a civil war. If I do and I'm successful my livelihood will be at risk, my society will be a mess, my house and the currency in which I earn money will devalue. Unless I am poor and destitute, a civil war will never be an option that makes sense. Voting a different candidate is unlikely to effect any change. Politicians change tune once they are in power (eg. Biden and his promises to forget student loans) and a lot of views are not represented in candidates. I still don't see any reasons to be blamed for what my government does. And I don't blame the Russians for what Putin is doing, I'm sickened by the amount of hate Russians are getting (especially the ones living abroad): a lot of them have been trying to escape Russia for decades and only the richest and most skilled are able to do so.
    - awb 5y ago
      Heads of State as individuals are not any stronger, smarter or better than the rest of us. They become stronger and more powerful because of their support system. If you participate in a system, you are propping it up to at least some degree. Your philosophy sounds like a dictator’s sweet spot. Lie, cheat, steal, intimidate, coerce, punish, etc. as much as possible, but not to the point where the people want to do anything about it. Make them feel disconnected, powerless and dependent on you. Present yourself as their protector, their savior, the only one between you and a world that wants to destroy the things important to them: their family, their job, their culture, etc. So yeah no one citizen is directly responsible for their leader’s actions, but we’re all responsible to some extent for our country’s actions if we’re not resisting them effectively. You don’t always have to kill to resist. Some people start an underground newspaper. Others collaborate with foreign governments. Others practice civil disobedience. Others flee the country. Others make art and comedy that helps turn popular sentiment. Others practice economic boycotts. There are lots of ways to resist if you’re willing. But you can’t be neutral on a moving train.
- ecf 5y ago
  Russian citizens are what allow the dictatorship to stay in power. If they really didn’t like Putin, they’d be able to get rid of him.

frabbit 5y ago

This coupled with the jail sentences for "disinformation" are predictable in autocracies like Russia. They desire to shutdown information and steer their subject populations into the path of correct thinking. Very disturbing to see the EU following down this path with the censorship of RussiaToday and other Russian propaganda outfits. As a citizen of a democracy it is essential that I have the right to access and evaluate all opinions. Even those which I find abhorrent.

djbebs 5y ago
The opposite is happening in the EU, where people are committing a crime if they hold the russian stance.
- frabbit 5y ago
  Two things on that: 1) that was somewhat my point: so-called liberal democracies are increasingly censoring and distributing information. Exactly the Orwellian-dystopia many of us fear. 2) If we are talking about the Czech and Slovak examples posted the other day¹ I doubt the Czech authorities, if correctly reported (they seem like extra-ordinary over-reach to me, so much so that I wondered if they were Russian psyops to make the EU look undemocratic and authoritarian), have a legal leg to stand on. The laws seem to refer to war-time. It's part of an attempt to threaten people to shut up or else. I was tempted to see this as a flare-up of anti-democratic thinking from a state long run by a Stalinist political class and only recently (2004) acceded to the EU. Like Poland and Hungary there remain serious questions about the commitment to democratic principles of such states. But then I checked myself and noted that this was unfair as the EU has issued no formal condemnation of this censorship and the public appetite for being spoon fed by their betters seems high. To be clear: Russia is committing a war crime in invading Ukraine and must withdraw. We must support the Ukranian people without allowing the authoritarians in our own societies to destroy the very values we claim to uphold. No censorship. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30545186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30545186
  - frabbit 5y ago

Lammy 5y ago

Just use the other i-word like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_U...

awb 5y ago
There was a Russian blogger who swapped ‘invasion’ for ‘TOTALLY PEACEFUL MISSION’ or something similar. I don’t think they’ll be able to persuade a Russian judge, but it’s interesting to see how people are trying to get around this.

tguvot 5y ago

i made a translation of official RIA new feed a couple of days worth to English to show what official media looks like in Russia right now https://pastebin.com/2JvLre8d https://pastebin.com/2JvLre8d Edit: there was country wide school lesson to explain to children operation in Ukraine. This is material for teachers to assist with Q&A post lesson https://meduza.io/feature/2022/03/03/kogda-ty-vstupish-v-sovsem-uzh-vzrosluyu-zhizn-vse-uzhe-ulyazhetsya https://meduza.io/feature/2022/03/03/kogda-ty-vstupish-v-sov...

awb 5y ago
Interesting. Looks like they’re embracing the sanction news and boosting Maduro’s views. But amazing to see 0 headlines about Russian advances in Ukraine.
- tguvot 5y ago
  The official news talking mostly about LNR/DNR armies advancing. Russian military performing only surgical strikes against military targets