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This is such an bad faith take I don't even know how to engage with this. It's not that you believe it was installed in a CIA backed coup, you just _KNOW_ it.

This is such an bad faith take I don't even know how to engage with this. It's not that you believe it was installed in a CIA backed coup, you just _KNOW_ it. Being from Eastern Europe, I can tell you, it is worth standing up to Russia and not kowtowing to it. It's normal people want to live in close connection with the western world and not in whatever the heck kind of local order Russia is trying to create. And, also, yes, orange man was unbelievably bad and led to the destabilization of the world around. Calling anti-Trumpism stupidity, lets me believe you are the one living in a delusion unable to consider the realities of the world.

sidibe 5y ago
No you don't understand power politics, sorry you're leaning on your own experience instead of the expert approved only USA and Russia matters geopolitical framework. No way that without CIA puppet masters Ukrainians would use their own will (after all non-powers countries have no will or agency) to choose to orient West like the failed Baltic states and Poland instead of being a thriving Russian vassal like Belarus
- RealityVoid 5y ago
  I enjoyed reading this, but the sarcasm might fly over a lot of people's heads. :)
oldcigarette 5y ago
So are we at the point where we deny the Nuland thing every happened? None of this happened under the foreign policy of Trump. I support Ukrainian self determination but this is not what happened and even if it is it is not how Russia perceives which seems entirely reasonable.
- RealityVoid 5y ago
  I think Russian motivation works completely different than the way you believe it works. Assigning perfect rationality all the time is a mistake, and misses what I believe is Putin's motivation, recreating Russia as a regional power, and bringing back the old USSR satellites. It's a matter of pride and feelings of offended national pride are a dime a dozen in Eastern Europe.
- oldcigarette 5y ago
  >bringing back the old USSR satellites This is basically equivalent to saying Putin is retarded because there is no way they can pull this off. Putin has acted exactly how he said he would act since at least 2008 when NATO membership was proposed. I'm inclined to believe the words of someone who acts consistently with them rather than your literal bandwagon fallacy.
  - RealityVoid 5y ago
    Putin _is_ consistent, but not with his words but with his actions. He is not thinking in the short term, but in the long term, how can he make Russia a bigger player on the world stage. I repeat, assigning perfect reason to Putin is a mistake, he's driven by ideas that override immediate pragmatism. His claims of NATO security threats are a veil, a lie. I think this post sells it quite well: https://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense/comments/t2mb0c/the_russian_security_concerns_lie/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense/comments/t2mb0c/the...

sidibe 5y ago

No you don't understand power politics, sorry you're leaning on your own experience instead of the expert approved only USA and Russia matters geopolitical framework. No way that without CIA puppet masters Ukrainians would use their own will (after all non-powers countries have no will or agency) to choose to orient West like the failed Baltic states and Poland instead of being a thriving Russian vassal like Belarus

RealityVoid 5y ago
I enjoyed reading this, but the sarcasm might fly over a lot of people's heads. :)

oldcigarette 5y ago

So are we at the point where we deny the Nuland thing every happened? None of this happened under the foreign policy of Trump. I support Ukrainian self determination but this is not what happened and even if it is it is not how Russia perceives which seems entirely reasonable.

RealityVoid 5y ago
I think Russian motivation works completely different than the way you believe it works. Assigning perfect rationality all the time is a mistake, and misses what I believe is Putin's motivation, recreating Russia as a regional power, and bringing back the old USSR satellites. It's a matter of pride and feelings of offended national pride are a dime a dozen in Eastern Europe.
oldcigarette 5y ago
>bringing back the old USSR satellites This is basically equivalent to saying Putin is retarded because there is no way they can pull this off. Putin has acted exactly how he said he would act since at least 2008 when NATO membership was proposed. I'm inclined to believe the words of someone who acts consistently with them rather than your literal bandwagon fallacy.
- RealityVoid 5y ago
  Putin _is_ consistent, but not with his words but with his actions. He is not thinking in the short term, but in the long term, how can he make Russia a bigger player on the world stage. I repeat, assigning perfect reason to Putin is a mistake, he's driven by ideas that override immediate pragmatism. His claims of NATO security threats are a veil, a lie. I think this post sells it quite well: https://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense/comments/t2mb0c/the_russian_security_concerns_lie/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense/comments/t2mb0c/the...