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> Most of the time you can’t even if you want to because someone will merge in front of you with that much space. This annoys me so much. It creates a game the

> Most of the time you can’t even if you want to because someone will merge in front of you with that much space. This annoys me so much. It creates a game theory situation where everybody has to drive like an asshole in order to avoid being cut off by assholes.

mattcwilson 5y ago
Seems like the game theory being applied there is a bit of prisoners dilemma. Is playing “asshole” the right move?
- pclmulqdq 5y ago
  In California, unfortunately, the answer seems to be "yes." When I moved to the northeast US, drivers were more sane on highways.
  - tfigment 5y ago
    When I moved to Boston, the first lesson I learned was any gap in front of me that can fit a car will soon have one there. I think it is big cities in general not just regions.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      It is not big cities per se, it is any road that has surpassed carrying capacity. Obviously, this will be seen more in areas more densely populated with cars relative to road capacity. If you drive in south or east Asia, you will see what naturally happens when the number of vehicles on the path greatly exceed the capacity of the path traveling at a certain speed. You can basically model it as fluid dynamics at a certain point in places like Mumbai and Bangkok.
fouc 5y ago
Frankly it's fine to create enough gap that people are passing in front of you.. My response is usually to widen the gap even more. It actually has the effect of helping to smooth traffic, reducing traffic jams.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > It actually has the effect of helping to smooth traffic, reducing traffic jams. I hear this a lot from people who practice this sort of driving, but don't the simulations suggest that the opposite is true, traffic actually improves when drivers are more aggressive?
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Having cars be "aggressive" in this context basically means they flow into the voids more readily. An example would be moving left into a "this would be an impolite move in any other context" sized cap between two cars to in order to let someone merge and then getting right back out of the lane.
  - fouc 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  You are also reducing throughput, and causing more congestion behind you. There is no having our cake and eating it too. Once a road hits maximum capacity at the safest distance gaps between cars, the only way to increase the road capacity is to reduce the distance gaps between cars.
  - fouc 5y ago
    In addition to increasing the gap, you have to drive steadily, with no braking. This makes you become the most predictable car on the road, people behind you can follow steadily instead of constantly accelerating & braking. This leads to reduced congestion. This CGP video covers some of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      There is no steady in high congestion areas with lots of on and off ramps. The rules are nice when there is no congestion and plenty of room to spread out, but the problems are inevitable at rush times or at chokepoints.
chronofar 5y ago
Until you realize being cut off doesn’t actually impact you much so you play a much safer game of giving everyone a wide enough berth to act like an idiot and not ruin your day. Driving habits are extremely psychologically interesting, from road rage at a stranger who did something you didn’t like to people feeling compelled, and indeed proud, of unsafe driving habits that put multiple lives at risk to save a couple minutes on a trip. An argument could be made that curing these tendencies would stand to save more lives then almost any other mass behavioral correction (saving maybe dietary choices).
- Semaphor 5y ago
  > Until you realize being cut off doesn’t actually impact you much I keep a long distance, and I drive fast. Germany, so fast means actually fast. My large safety margin means I have to keep braking because slower cars move past me and into my safety margin. Then, once the original blockage in front of me is cleared, I have to pass all those slower idiots who just overtook me again. If driving wasn’t such a rare occurrence (usually 3-4 times a year) for me, I’d probably stop keeping a large safety distance like every other asshole. Granted, race car drivers who think distance is measured in centimeters are even worse.
- Firaxus 5y ago
  Absolutely. In the context of high way driving especially with its high speeds, the slight slowing down to maintain follow distance even if people were constantly moving in is negligible to the overall trip time, and it’s highway driving where that follow distance is the most critical to saving lives. If people sat down with the numbers and realized how little that slight slowing down in the moment someone moves in front of them impacts their trip time, how little it matters to the original trip time that someone passed them, the roads would be a lot safer, less stressful, and faster overall.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    If everyone slowed down, there would be far more congestion backing up due to reducing the throughput of the road. I would argue that the people driving at distances closer to the car in front of them are reducing congestion by increasing the throughput of the road. Obviously this is mitigated by decreased throughput due to increased probability of collisions. But if EVERYONE drove such that they could fully stop if the car in front do them fully stopped, you would have a public uproar over how much backed up traffic there was. There road is basically constantly in flux and politicians could enforce minimum driving distances very easily with cameras and drive down collisions, but it would be massively unpopular and they would get voted out immediately. I presume that is why we already do not have speed cameras in the US. It would be trivial to fine everyone breaking the speed limits. Or even driving too close to each other. For a tolled road, you can get go back however many years you want and retroactively fine people for going past the speed limit based on toll time stamps. But I figure the lack of this happening means the public wants to make this risk vs convenience trade off.
croon 5y ago

mattcwilson 5y ago

Seems like the game theory being applied there is a bit of prisoners dilemma. Is playing “asshole” the right move?

pclmulqdq 5y ago
In California, unfortunately, the answer seems to be "yes." When I moved to the northeast US, drivers were more sane on highways.
- tfigment 5y ago
  When I moved to Boston, the first lesson I learned was any gap in front of me that can fit a car will soon have one there. I think it is big cities in general not just regions.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    It is not big cities per se, it is any road that has surpassed carrying capacity. Obviously, this will be seen more in areas more densely populated with cars relative to road capacity. If you drive in south or east Asia, you will see what naturally happens when the number of vehicles on the path greatly exceed the capacity of the path traveling at a certain speed. You can basically model it as fluid dynamics at a certain point in places like Mumbai and Bangkok.

fouc 5y ago

Frankly it's fine to create enough gap that people are passing in front of you.. My response is usually to widen the gap even more. It actually has the effect of helping to smooth traffic, reducing traffic jams.

rootusrootus 5y ago
> It actually has the effect of helping to smooth traffic, reducing traffic jams. I hear this a lot from people who practice this sort of driving, but don't the simulations suggest that the opposite is true, traffic actually improves when drivers are more aggressive?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Having cars be "aggressive" in this context basically means they flow into the voids more readily. An example would be moving left into a "this would be an impolite move in any other context" sized cap between two cars to in order to let someone merge and then getting right back out of the lane.
- fouc 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE
lotsofpulp 5y ago
You are also reducing throughput, and causing more congestion behind you. There is no having our cake and eating it too. Once a road hits maximum capacity at the safest distance gaps between cars, the only way to increase the road capacity is to reduce the distance gaps between cars.
- fouc 5y ago
  In addition to increasing the gap, you have to drive steadily, with no braking. This makes you become the most predictable car on the road, people behind you can follow steadily instead of constantly accelerating & braking. This leads to reduced congestion. This CGP video covers some of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    There is no steady in high congestion areas with lots of on and off ramps. The rules are nice when there is no congestion and plenty of room to spread out, but the problems are inevitable at rush times or at chokepoints.

chronofar 5y ago

Until you realize being cut off doesn’t actually impact you much so you play a much safer game of giving everyone a wide enough berth to act like an idiot and not ruin your day. Driving habits are extremely psychologically interesting, from road rage at a stranger who did something you didn’t like to people feeling compelled, and indeed proud, of unsafe driving habits that put multiple lives at risk to save a couple minutes on a trip. An argument could be made that curing these tendencies would stand to save more lives then almost any other mass behavioral correction (saving maybe dietary choices).

Semaphor 5y ago
> Until you realize being cut off doesn’t actually impact you much I keep a long distance, and I drive fast. Germany, so fast means actually fast. My large safety margin means I have to keep braking because slower cars move past me and into my safety margin. Then, once the original blockage in front of me is cleared, I have to pass all those slower idiots who just overtook me again. If driving wasn’t such a rare occurrence (usually 3-4 times a year) for me, I’d probably stop keeping a large safety distance like every other asshole. Granted, race car drivers who think distance is measured in centimeters are even worse.
Firaxus 5y ago
Absolutely. In the context of high way driving especially with its high speeds, the slight slowing down to maintain follow distance even if people were constantly moving in is negligible to the overall trip time, and it’s highway driving where that follow distance is the most critical to saving lives. If people sat down with the numbers and realized how little that slight slowing down in the moment someone moves in front of them impacts their trip time, how little it matters to the original trip time that someone passed them, the roads would be a lot safer, less stressful, and faster overall.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  If everyone slowed down, there would be far more congestion backing up due to reducing the throughput of the road. I would argue that the people driving at distances closer to the car in front of them are reducing congestion by increasing the throughput of the road. Obviously this is mitigated by decreased throughput due to increased probability of collisions. But if EVERYONE drove such that they could fully stop if the car in front do them fully stopped, you would have a public uproar over how much backed up traffic there was. There road is basically constantly in flux and politicians could enforce minimum driving distances very easily with cameras and drive down collisions, but it would be massively unpopular and they would get voted out immediately. I presume that is why we already do not have speed cameras in the US. It would be trivial to fine everyone breaking the speed limits. Or even driving too close to each other. For a tolled road, you can get go back however many years you want and retroactively fine people for going past the speed limit based on toll time stamps. But I figure the lack of this happening means the public wants to make this risk vs convenience trade off.

croon 5y ago