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Territorial expansion is part of Russian nationalism. Putin may get away with this, because nationalists support this cause. On the left it's Soviet nostalgia,

Territorial expansion is part of Russian nationalism. Putin may get away with this, because nationalists support this cause. On the left it's Soviet nostalgia, on the right Imperial White Russia. There is people on left [1] and right within Russia who views this as western war against Russia. They view Ukraine as part of Russia, and thus west is waging war on Russia. Danger is, if Putin can portray this as west vs Russia, he could start enlisting people from far-left and far-right. That army would be quiet different in it's morale than the first dumbfound army he sent which thought they were going to exercises. There are more areas, such as parts of Kazakhstan which could be targets, Russian ambassador has already warned them to not stage exercises with NATO. [2] [1]: https://twitter.com/s_udaltsov/status/1499476989278887951 https://twitter.com/s_udaltsov/status/1499476989278887951 [2]: https://thediplomat.com/2022/02/russian-ambassador-to-kazakhstan-says-us-nato-steppe-eagle-exercise-will-no-longer-fly/ https://thediplomat.com/2022/02/russian-ambassador-to-kazakh...

pm90 5y ago
Internet trolls don’t make good soldiers.
- throwaway828492 5y ago
  This is not about internet trolls, read about Sergei Udaltsov [1] for instance. He was once seen as charismatic leader of somewhat sane part of leftists in Russia. If he is now willing to think this is war between west and Russia then it will be huge trouble. His influence cannot be overestimated, if man like him starts to agitate to join Russian military to fight west, we don't know what we will see. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Udaltsov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Udaltsov
throwaway599281 5y ago
> They view Ukraine as part of Russia And it is. So is Transcarpathia (Zakarpattia Oblast) part of Hungary, and other parts or Ukraine that should belong to Romania and even some to Poland. Their current borders are an accident that should have long been solved diplomatically, but alas here we are. >Danger is, if Putin can portray this as west vs Russia, he could start enlisting people from far-left and far-right. The danger was these maneuvers that even in the Bush era, people recognized they would be deemed unacceptable by Russia. And the whole handling of the relations with Ukraine since the events of 2014. This situation is far more complex than "Kremlin man bad". Unfortunately the people who will pay for these are not diplomats or the big interests that played this situation as a game, it will be the average Ukrainian who see their country torn apart, and in a lesser extent the average Russian, severely affected by sanctions.
- throwaway828492 5y ago
  Parent post is prime example of this nationalism. Changing borders in Europe (or elsewhere) is very dangerous. Even in central asia, there is hints of separatism in many small areas, fuelling those fires will lead to mass graves. If you look at the map in Europe, many of them make no sense, if you travel in Europe many people tell you weird feuds with their neighbors. Even between Polish and Ukrainian nationalists there have been massacres and mass graves, these memories still exist between each other. If we allow changing borders based on history books, blood will be spilled way more. Unfortunately the genie might be out of bottle, because this war will be very long one.
  - yuppie_scum 5y ago
    Are you replying to yourself?
    - throwaway828492 5y ago
      Nope, that was surprisingly someone else. I have just these two throwaways 828491 and 828492.
- soco 5y ago
  And who gets to decide which moment in time should be taken as reference for the "true" borders? Because borders in Europe changed so much and so many tomes over history, that pretty much everybody can make territorial claims about everybody else and not be totally wrong. I wish I was exaggerating.
  - throwaway599281 5y ago
    You don't even have to look at old maps that much, when as in this case a great part of the population didn't migrate elsewhere. Just look at the ethnic/linguistic distributions in the area. This would not work that well for example, German population in territories lost during WW I, afaik.

pm90 5y ago

Internet trolls don’t make good soldiers.

throwaway828492 5y ago
This is not about internet trolls, read about Sergei Udaltsov [1] for instance. He was once seen as charismatic leader of somewhat sane part of leftists in Russia. If he is now willing to think this is war between west and Russia then it will be huge trouble. His influence cannot be overestimated, if man like him starts to agitate to join Russian military to fight west, we don't know what we will see. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Udaltsov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Udaltsov

throwaway599281 5y ago

> They view Ukraine as part of Russia And it is. So is Transcarpathia (Zakarpattia Oblast) part of Hungary, and other parts or Ukraine that should belong to Romania and even some to Poland. Their current borders are an accident that should have long been solved diplomatically, but alas here we are. >Danger is, if Putin can portray this as west vs Russia, he could start enlisting people from far-left and far-right. The danger was these maneuvers that even in the Bush era, people recognized they would be deemed unacceptable by Russia. And the whole handling of the relations with Ukraine since the events of 2014. This situation is far more complex than "Kremlin man bad". Unfortunately the people who will pay for these are not diplomats or the big interests that played this situation as a game, it will be the average Ukrainian who see their country torn apart, and in a lesser extent the average Russian, severely affected by sanctions.

throwaway828492 5y ago
Parent post is prime example of this nationalism. Changing borders in Europe (or elsewhere) is very dangerous. Even in central asia, there is hints of separatism in many small areas, fuelling those fires will lead to mass graves. If you look at the map in Europe, many of them make no sense, if you travel in Europe many people tell you weird feuds with their neighbors. Even between Polish and Ukrainian nationalists there have been massacres and mass graves, these memories still exist between each other. If we allow changing borders based on history books, blood will be spilled way more. Unfortunately the genie might be out of bottle, because this war will be very long one.
- yuppie_scum 5y ago
  Are you replying to yourself?
  - throwaway828492 5y ago
    Nope, that was surprisingly someone else. I have just these two throwaways 828491 and 828492.
soco 5y ago
And who gets to decide which moment in time should be taken as reference for the "true" borders? Because borders in Europe changed so much and so many tomes over history, that pretty much everybody can make territorial claims about everybody else and not be totally wrong. I wish I was exaggerating.
- throwaway599281 5y ago
  You don't even have to look at old maps that much, when as in this case a great part of the population didn't migrate elsewhere. Just look at the ethnic/linguistic distributions in the area. This would not work that well for example, German population in territories lost during WW I, afaik.