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Manufactured realities believed by large groups of people are definitely a thing at the moment, and not just in Russia. Another example is in the USA where, re

Manufactured realities believed by large groups of people are definitely a thing at the moment, and not just in Russia. Another example is in the USA where, reportedly, 40% of people don't believe Biden won the 2020 election despite the vast number of lawsuits and recounts that have occurred (source for the 40% number https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-bide...)

philovivero 5y ago
So, what's a charitable interpretation of that? For five straight years, we were bombarded with how awful it is that someone could be so extreme and racist, then we elected a card-carrying KKK member into office? Seems implausible. That 40% of people spent decades being given the false choice between big-government shill D and big government shill R. They finally were given a real alternative, so they trusted him. He told them that 2020 was a manufactured win by a big government shill D, just like the last 15 elections. Why wouldn't they believe him? You ask them to trust the experts. Well, he supplied a lot of experts to back him up. You ask them to trust YOUR experts. If you bothered to ask them, they'd ask you to trust theirs. Normally the way we fix these things is have discussions and try to understand each other. That, apparently, is no longer on the table. Instead we get veiled "the other guys are idiots." Not helping.
- PartiallyTyped 5y ago
  What alternative? The same alternative that cut taxes for his rich friends [1], and hiked the taxes for the same people that voted for him [2-3]? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/09/trump-tax-cuts-helped-billionaires-pay-less https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/09/trump-tax-c... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/31/opinion/republicans-biden-taxes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/31/opinion/republicans-biden... [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/senate-tax-bill-cuts-taxes-of-wealthy-and-hikes-taxes-of-families-earning-under-75000-over-a-decade/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/senat... > The law they passed initially lowered taxes for most Americans, but it built in automatic, stepped tax increases every two years that begin in 2021 and that by 2027 would affect nearly everyone but people at the top of the economic hierarchy. All taxpayer income groups with incomes of $75,000 and under — that’s about 65 percent of taxpayers — will face a higher tax rate in 2027 than in 2019.
  - hirako2000 5y ago
    by 2027, the over $75k earners will represent far more than 65% of tax payers. even at ordinary inflation, which is very unlikely going to remain as "low" as for the last 5y. interesting struggle ahead. Thanks for posting some sources. it's fascinating.
    - PartiallyTyped 5y ago
      I have sources for more interesting stuff regarding Trump, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30542741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30542741
- pixl97 5y ago
  At the end of the day, sometimes the other guys just are idiots. See current story.
- darkerside 5y ago
  I don't think it's intellectual idiocy at fault here. I actually think it's emotional immaturity and incomplete theory of mind. When I was younger, conspiracy theories seemed quite plausible. Perhaps I was the only one who saw the truth, and perhaps everyone was aligned on keeping certain secrets. Now that I'm older, I realize people are people, and I'm not very different. Most of us are not good at keeping secrets, and all of us are pattern finding machines, seven when the pattern is not there. After assuming incompetence instead of massive and applying Occam's razor, the world all still makes sense. It's a simple duck that looks like an elaborately constructed rabbit.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  A charitable reading of both Putin and Trump fans could be that both are in the thrall of small but immensely wealthy groups who need some level of legitamacy from the masses. And while it is cheaper and easier overall to just make peoples lives better, for that powerful minority they can make themselves much, much wealthier by feeding propaganda to their people. So they did and do. And lots of people helped them, for lots of different reasons, but primarily because people paid them to or because they got conned by the people getting paid to con them. Does that make the Russian and American public dumb? I don't think so, but they're definately misinformed about reality and contributing to their own problems (up to and including death) as a result. You can't even enjoy people getting caught out by their own propaganda (like Trump getting booed for saying vaccines work) because it basically signals that even they have lost any semblence of control over where things are going and the horrible monster they created. Now we have a mob of angry, scared people who don't trust politicians, media, science or experts (because powerful groups attacked and undermined all of these) and they're leading the way.
- hattmall 5y ago
  Are you saying Biden is in the KKK?
refurb 5y ago
I mean Hilary Clinton said, as recently as 2019 that Trump was not a "legitimate president". And this is someone who was the Democrat candidate for US president. So let's not pretend both sides don't pretty much say whatever they want, lies included, to score political points. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum...
- darkerside 5y ago
  Hilary went off the rails after losing a sure bet, and she's even less popular now than she was during that election. She also is a former candidate, which is incredibly different from a former president. Stupid comments aside, she didn't contest the results or encourage people to violently protest after she lost. But yes, you can draw parallels to just about anything if you really want to.
- pm90 5y ago
  > I mean Hilary Clinton said, as recently as 2019 that Trump was not a "legitimate president". And this is someone who was the Democrat candidate for US president. She accepted the results of the Presidential election. Not the same; don’t both sides this.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Saying an elected president is “illegitimate” undermines the democratic process. The same as Trump supporters saying it about Biden.
    - pm90 5y ago
      No it does not. It is a view expressed by Private Citizen Hillary Clinton, after she conceded the election, which she is free to do.
      - refurb 5y ago
        No. But nice attempt at gaslighting. She’s a likely 2024 candidate. Her attack against the US democratic institutions is shameful.
hattmall 5y ago
- pm90 5y ago
  No, there is absolutely no evidence of fraud/manipulation as has been meticulously shown by all the lawsuits and recounts.
- raesene9 5y ago
  Do you have references for there being far more evidence of fraud than against it in the US 2020 presidential election? From what I've seen there have been a large number of recounts and reviews in battleground states, including recounts carried out by the republican party, none of which have found evidence of substantial fraud.
pm90 5y ago
Reading the article, it’s hard to not see the parallels to actual Republican State Governments and politicians today: > The alternative reality was nothing but a crooked mirror of the living public sphere, filled with clowns in the place of politicians, cheap imitations instead of functioning social welfare organizations, and propagandists instead of journalists and analysts. It was easy enough to cope; you could just never vote for the clown, never read the fake pundits [...]. They were nothing but terrible actors performing other people’s scripts — tools in a crude political game. There is an entire political party in the US that’s following this exact playbook. The difference with the GOP has simply been bringing back election manipulation schemes that were outlawed by the Voting Rights act to hold on to political power while claiming to be democratic.

philovivero 5y ago

So, what's a charitable interpretation of that? For five straight years, we were bombarded with how awful it is that someone could be so extreme and racist, then we elected a card-carrying KKK member into office? Seems implausible. That 40% of people spent decades being given the false choice between big-government shill D and big government shill R. They finally were given a real alternative, so they trusted him. He told them that 2020 was a manufactured win by a big government shill D, just like the last 15 elections. Why wouldn't they believe him? You ask them to trust the experts. Well, he supplied a lot of experts to back him up. You ask them to trust YOUR experts. If you bothered to ask them, they'd ask you to trust theirs. Normally the way we fix these things is have discussions and try to understand each other. That, apparently, is no longer on the table. Instead we get veiled "the other guys are idiots." Not helping.

PartiallyTyped 5y ago
What alternative? The same alternative that cut taxes for his rich friends [1], and hiked the taxes for the same people that voted for him [2-3]? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/09/trump-tax-cuts-helped-billionaires-pay-less https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/09/trump-tax-c... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/31/opinion/republicans-biden-taxes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/31/opinion/republicans-biden... [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/senate-tax-bill-cuts-taxes-of-wealthy-and-hikes-taxes-of-families-earning-under-75000-over-a-decade/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/senat... > The law they passed initially lowered taxes for most Americans, but it built in automatic, stepped tax increases every two years that begin in 2021 and that by 2027 would affect nearly everyone but people at the top of the economic hierarchy. All taxpayer income groups with incomes of $75,000 and under — that’s about 65 percent of taxpayers — will face a higher tax rate in 2027 than in 2019.
- hirako2000 5y ago
  by 2027, the over $75k earners will represent far more than 65% of tax payers. even at ordinary inflation, which is very unlikely going to remain as "low" as for the last 5y. interesting struggle ahead. Thanks for posting some sources. it's fascinating.
  - PartiallyTyped 5y ago
    I have sources for more interesting stuff regarding Trump, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30542741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30542741
pixl97 5y ago
At the end of the day, sometimes the other guys just are idiots. See current story.
darkerside 5y ago
I don't think it's intellectual idiocy at fault here. I actually think it's emotional immaturity and incomplete theory of mind. When I was younger, conspiracy theories seemed quite plausible. Perhaps I was the only one who saw the truth, and perhaps everyone was aligned on keeping certain secrets. Now that I'm older, I realize people are people, and I'm not very different. Most of us are not good at keeping secrets, and all of us are pattern finding machines, seven when the pattern is not there. After assuming incompetence instead of massive and applying Occam's razor, the world all still makes sense. It's a simple duck that looks like an elaborately constructed rabbit.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
A charitable reading of both Putin and Trump fans could be that both are in the thrall of small but immensely wealthy groups who need some level of legitamacy from the masses. And while it is cheaper and easier overall to just make peoples lives better, for that powerful minority they can make themselves much, much wealthier by feeding propaganda to their people. So they did and do. And lots of people helped them, for lots of different reasons, but primarily because people paid them to or because they got conned by the people getting paid to con them. Does that make the Russian and American public dumb? I don't think so, but they're definately misinformed about reality and contributing to their own problems (up to and including death) as a result. You can't even enjoy people getting caught out by their own propaganda (like Trump getting booed for saying vaccines work) because it basically signals that even they have lost any semblence of control over where things are going and the horrible monster they created. Now we have a mob of angry, scared people who don't trust politicians, media, science or experts (because powerful groups attacked and undermined all of these) and they're leading the way.
hattmall 5y ago
Are you saying Biden is in the KKK?

refurb 5y ago

I mean Hilary Clinton said, as recently as 2019 that Trump was not a "legitimate president". And this is someone who was the Democrat candidate for US president. So let's not pretend both sides don't pretty much say whatever they want, lies included, to score political points. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum...

darkerside 5y ago
Hilary went off the rails after losing a sure bet, and she's even less popular now than she was during that election. She also is a former candidate, which is incredibly different from a former president. Stupid comments aside, she didn't contest the results or encourage people to violently protest after she lost. But yes, you can draw parallels to just about anything if you really want to.
pm90 5y ago
> I mean Hilary Clinton said, as recently as 2019 that Trump was not a "legitimate president". And this is someone who was the Democrat candidate for US president. She accepted the results of the Presidential election. Not the same; don’t both sides this.
- refurb 5y ago
  Saying an elected president is “illegitimate” undermines the democratic process. The same as Trump supporters saying it about Biden.
  - pm90 5y ago
    No it does not. It is a view expressed by Private Citizen Hillary Clinton, after she conceded the election, which she is free to do.
    - refurb 5y ago
      No. But nice attempt at gaslighting. She’s a likely 2024 candidate. Her attack against the US democratic institutions is shameful.

hattmall 5y ago

pm90 5y ago
No, there is absolutely no evidence of fraud/manipulation as has been meticulously shown by all the lawsuits and recounts.
raesene9 5y ago
Do you have references for there being far more evidence of fraud than against it in the US 2020 presidential election? From what I've seen there have been a large number of recounts and reviews in battleground states, including recounts carried out by the republican party, none of which have found evidence of substantial fraud.

pm90 5y ago

Reading the article, it’s hard to not see the parallels to actual Republican State Governments and politicians today: > The alternative reality was nothing but a crooked mirror of the living public sphere, filled with clowns in the place of politicians, cheap imitations instead of functioning social welfare organizations, and propagandists instead of journalists and analysts. It was easy enough to cope; you could just never vote for the clown, never read the fake pundits [...]. They were nothing but terrible actors performing other people’s scripts — tools in a crude political game. There is an entire political party in the US that’s following this exact playbook. The difference with the GOP has simply been bringing back election manipulation schemes that were outlawed by the Voting Rights act to hold on to political power while claiming to be democratic.