5 ms·

I'd like to engage with this opinion because I genuinely have no idea how this is the conclusion people reach (that crypto is bad for the environment). The con

I'd like to engage with this opinion because I genuinely have no idea how this is the conclusion people reach (that crypto is bad for the environment). The configuration of transistors through which electrons are punched is obviously not the problem (at least I hope it's obvious). So it must be about proof of work chains, right? That they create high demand? That's about the only point I do understand, but I think you'd be hard pressed to meaningfully translate a bitcoin transaction to a carbon cost. There are some mining farms powered by green energy (less altruistic and more about being off grid). But if we're talking about energy usage and environmental damage, we have to talk mining. There is just no debate that mining is THE singular (keyword) greatest threat to the environment. Fracking, acid mine drainage, offshore drilling, sonic bombardments of coastlines, the ridonculous requirements of smelting. The list goes on and on. We are stuck with that industry for a long time though. I'd argue the minerals that constitute the technology you're using to view this comment may have done more damage than bitcoin and co have. In a nutshell, here's my problem with this argument: To suggest that demand is responsible for the damage caused by supply is just a crazy warping of reality. That absolutely does not make sense. There are other, more pressing issues with crypto (like the lack of regulation around fiat exchanges and how they constantly get rugged) and those criticisms are valid, but they get lost in the noise of "how we generate energy is not as bad as how we use it". I just can't get on board with that point of view.

larsrc 5y ago
Cryptocurrencies have shown that you can transform energy into money without any of that messy middle step of doing something useful.
- eru 5y ago
  They prevent double spending attacks. That service is useful for some people. You can of course disagree. Just like you can disagree that building and fueling yachts for rich people is useful.
  - selfportrait 5y ago
    This entire chain of replies is skewed. Yes, real world mining is a serious offender, but that doesn’t exempt crypto mining. Have one look at one photograph of a crypto mining farm for one second and this will be obvious to anyone. On the point of double spend - collusion in bitcoin mining is very possible and decentralization is not as strong as claimed. There are tons of studies about this. https://cowles.yale.edu/3a/parlour-miner-collusion-and-bitcoin-protocol.pdf https://cowles.yale.edu/3a/parlour-miner-collusion-and-bitco...
    - eru 5y ago
      > Yes, real world mining is a serious offender, but that doesn’t exempt crypto mining. Agreed, they have essentially nothing in common apart from the name. > Have one look at one photograph of a crypto mining farm for one second and this will be obvious to anyone. Why? You can get pretty bad pictures of eg factory farming, too; still that doesn't mean people will stop eating factory farmed meat. > On the point of double spend - collusion in bitcoin mining is very possible and decentralization is not as strong as claimed. There are tons of studies about this. The pdf you linked says nothing about double spending.
      - selfportrait 5y ago
        > Agreed, they have essentially nothing in common apart from the name. I don’t know if it’s your English, but you just said you agreed that crypto mining is an offender on the level of other forms of mining. > Why? You can get pretty bad pictures of eg factory farming, too; still that doesn't mean people will stop eating factory farmed meat. Except there are people who stop eating meat, reduce their intake, and there are advances in meat alternatives in the market. This is whataboutism 101. It’s quite frankly ignorant. > The pdf you linked says nothing about double spending. The PDF I linked is about bitcoin mining collusion, one of bitcoin’s flaws. If you knew anything about collusion and the consequences of a potential 51% attack, double spending is one of the central topics. Your entire post sounds like paid misinformation.
        5y ago
- DethNinja 5y ago
  How is that different than central bank printing? Print money and hand it to your buddies so that they buy new yachts instead of producing anything of value? At least with crypto we know where the money is going and potentially how it is spent. I can’t believe people still argue against cryptocurrencies in 2022 when it has completely proved itself superior to fiat in every way possible, including overall energy usage.
  - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
    Nice red flag: people that claim crypto is bad because it uses energy are people that actually trust Elon Musk's arbitrary opinions. Elon knows less about cryptocurrency than a fair amount of degenerate twenty year old speculators.
    - selfportrait 5y ago
      I think you overstate the overlap of Musk fans and crypto climate impact critics. You would be mistaken to think that Musk fans are in large part anti-crypto. It’s a weird notion for you to even submit.
      - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
        Musk has a lot of influence for casual environmentalists - he has the biggest electric car company after all. His misunderstandings of crypto and what's important had far reaching affects on adoption and plenty an ignorant friend have tried to lecture me reinforced by what they view as such an authority.
FridgeSeal 5y ago
Resource extraction and usage is harmful, we do have many energy-inefficiencies that I for one would love to see fixes. However, that doesn’t excuse cryptocurrencies wasting egregious amounts of energy on top of those inefficiencies. By its design, it’s antithetical to serious energy and performance optimisations (e.g. won’t do away with mindless hashing, so their TPS will be lower by definition) so even if we are able to drastically improve the energy efficiency and minimise the environmental harm of our resource extraction and processing, crypto currencies will still have the worst efficiency.

larsrc 5y ago

Cryptocurrencies have shown that you can transform energy into money without any of that messy middle step of doing something useful.

eru 5y ago
They prevent double spending attacks. That service is useful for some people. You can of course disagree. Just like you can disagree that building and fueling yachts for rich people is useful.
- selfportrait 5y ago
  This entire chain of replies is skewed. Yes, real world mining is a serious offender, but that doesn’t exempt crypto mining. Have one look at one photograph of a crypto mining farm for one second and this will be obvious to anyone. On the point of double spend - collusion in bitcoin mining is very possible and decentralization is not as strong as claimed. There are tons of studies about this. https://cowles.yale.edu/3a/parlour-miner-collusion-and-bitcoin-protocol.pdf https://cowles.yale.edu/3a/parlour-miner-collusion-and-bitco...
  - eru 5y ago
    > Yes, real world mining is a serious offender, but that doesn’t exempt crypto mining. Agreed, they have essentially nothing in common apart from the name. > Have one look at one photograph of a crypto mining farm for one second and this will be obvious to anyone. Why? You can get pretty bad pictures of eg factory farming, too; still that doesn't mean people will stop eating factory farmed meat. > On the point of double spend - collusion in bitcoin mining is very possible and decentralization is not as strong as claimed. There are tons of studies about this. The pdf you linked says nothing about double spending.
    - selfportrait 5y ago
      > Agreed, they have essentially nothing in common apart from the name. I don’t know if it’s your English, but you just said you agreed that crypto mining is an offender on the level of other forms of mining. > Why? You can get pretty bad pictures of eg factory farming, too; still that doesn't mean people will stop eating factory farmed meat. Except there are people who stop eating meat, reduce their intake, and there are advances in meat alternatives in the market. This is whataboutism 101. It’s quite frankly ignorant. > The pdf you linked says nothing about double spending. The PDF I linked is about bitcoin mining collusion, one of bitcoin’s flaws. If you knew anything about collusion and the consequences of a potential 51% attack, double spending is one of the central topics. Your entire post sounds like paid misinformation.
      - 5y ago
DethNinja 5y ago
How is that different than central bank printing? Print money and hand it to your buddies so that they buy new yachts instead of producing anything of value? At least with crypto we know where the money is going and potentially how it is spent. I can’t believe people still argue against cryptocurrencies in 2022 when it has completely proved itself superior to fiat in every way possible, including overall energy usage.
- mattwilsonn888 5y ago
  Nice red flag: people that claim crypto is bad because it uses energy are people that actually trust Elon Musk's arbitrary opinions. Elon knows less about cryptocurrency than a fair amount of degenerate twenty year old speculators.
  - selfportrait 5y ago
    I think you overstate the overlap of Musk fans and crypto climate impact critics. You would be mistaken to think that Musk fans are in large part anti-crypto. It’s a weird notion for you to even submit.
    - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
      Musk has a lot of influence for casual environmentalists - he has the biggest electric car company after all. His misunderstandings of crypto and what's important had far reaching affects on adoption and plenty an ignorant friend have tried to lecture me reinforced by what they view as such an authority.

FridgeSeal 5y ago

Resource extraction and usage is harmful, we do have many energy-inefficiencies that I for one would love to see fixes. However, that doesn’t excuse cryptocurrencies wasting egregious amounts of energy on top of those inefficiencies. By its design, it’s antithetical to serious energy and performance optimisations (e.g. won’t do away with mindless hashing, so their TPS will be lower by definition) so even if we are able to drastically improve the energy efficiency and minimise the environmental harm of our resource extraction and processing, crypto currencies will still have the worst efficiency.