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> Honest question: why? Because the existing union of news workers demanded that software engineers be included in their membership as part of some negotiation

> Honest question: why? Because the existing union of news workers demanded that software engineers be included in their membership as part of some negotiation at some point. Basically, it was a way for the union to grow its membership (and dues). It was impossible to opt out of the union and you had to pay dues, I forget how much but I think it was like 2% of your salary or something to the union. Given the option I'm pretty sure most of us would have opted out of the union. I did know a few very senior software engineers who were nominally made managers so they could get out of the forced membership.

scarface74 5y ago
I would leave a company if they forced a 2% tax on me to join a union I didn’t want to join after I started working there.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Vote with your feet, just if management changed the role materially. The role would likely be filled quickly by replacement talent desiring the protections such representation offers.
  - scarface74 5y ago
    You mean by someone who would be okay with their compensation being negotiated by collective bargaining? How many of the most aggressive, most talented engineers would be willing to give up their negotiating leverage to a union?
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Most engineering roles don't require a "most aggressive, most talented" engineer. Someone less aggressive of modest talent is likely still a great fit for the work to be done. 10x-100x developers are overrated unless at an early stage startup where that skill level is crucial to get to product market fit and onward from there to sustainable hyper growth. Also, Dunning–Kruger. If you think you're super talented, allow the market to decide, and avoid organized shops. The data is pretty clear that most folks aren't good at or able to negotiate an outlier comp package (with some orgs not even allowing comp negotiation for equity purposes), so collective bargaining would net them more than them attempting to negotiate on their own. Of course folks at the high end of the comp structure complain, but that seems to be a given regardless and will be ever present.
      - scarface74 5y ago
        So, by your definition, the unionized shops would attract only “average” developers. How competitive will they be against companies that are more aggressive about recruitment by offering more talented people more money?
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        You work at a digital sweatshop (AWS [1], who cannot hire fast enough for the talent they bleed) but still don't believe in the merits of organization, so what would the value be in attempting to change your mind? Not rhetorical, I am genuinely curious. Higher level, I have a hypothesis that this boils down to empathy capacity, which some cohorts have more than others (and there is likely a genetic component [2] [3]), and therefore appeals are unlikely to sway opinions). You believe in optimizing for the individual, others believe in optimizing for the collective. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=aws+sweatshop https://www.google.com/search?q=aws+sweatshop [2] https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-finds-that-genes-play-a-role-in-empathy https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-finds-that-genes-p... [3] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.h...
        scarface74 5y ago
        I work in Professional Services. I don’t have those issues. I am very much in control of my own projects and calendar. I manage my customers expectations and make sure that they understand the holy trinity - time, cost and requirements. We agree on the scope of work before we start on a project and I manage the timelines not to overwork myself. This goes back to ensuring that I had a set of skills and experience so when I was initially contacted about an SDE position, I could say “no”, and they suggested I apply for a position in the consulting department. I also didn’t go through the DS&A leetCode monkey dance and could apply for a remote position. I was very much prepared to say “no” to Amazon if all I could get was an SDE position which required me to be on call or relocate. If AWS ProServe does every get to be an environment where I don’t like the work life balance, I will leave here just like I left my other 7 jobs.

scarface74 5y ago

I would leave a company if they forced a 2% tax on me to join a union I didn’t want to join after I started working there.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Vote with your feet, just if management changed the role materially. The role would likely be filled quickly by replacement talent desiring the protections such representation offers.
- scarface74 5y ago
  You mean by someone who would be okay with their compensation being negotiated by collective bargaining? How many of the most aggressive, most talented engineers would be willing to give up their negotiating leverage to a union?
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Most engineering roles don't require a "most aggressive, most talented" engineer. Someone less aggressive of modest talent is likely still a great fit for the work to be done. 10x-100x developers are overrated unless at an early stage startup where that skill level is crucial to get to product market fit and onward from there to sustainable hyper growth. Also, Dunning–Kruger. If you think you're super talented, allow the market to decide, and avoid organized shops. The data is pretty clear that most folks aren't good at or able to negotiate an outlier comp package (with some orgs not even allowing comp negotiation for equity purposes), so collective bargaining would net them more than them attempting to negotiate on their own. Of course folks at the high end of the comp structure complain, but that seems to be a given regardless and will be ever present.
    - scarface74 5y ago
      So, by your definition, the unionized shops would attract only “average” developers. How competitive will they be against companies that are more aggressive about recruitment by offering more talented people more money?
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        You work at a digital sweatshop (AWS [1], who cannot hire fast enough for the talent they bleed) but still don't believe in the merits of organization, so what would the value be in attempting to change your mind? Not rhetorical, I am genuinely curious. Higher level, I have a hypothesis that this boils down to empathy capacity, which some cohorts have more than others (and there is likely a genetic component [2] [3]), and therefore appeals are unlikely to sway opinions). You believe in optimizing for the individual, others believe in optimizing for the collective. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=aws+sweatshop https://www.google.com/search?q=aws+sweatshop [2] https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-finds-that-genes-play-a-role-in-empathy https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-finds-that-genes-p... [3] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.h...
        scarface74 5y ago
        I work in Professional Services. I don’t have those issues. I am very much in control of my own projects and calendar. I manage my customers expectations and make sure that they understand the holy trinity - time, cost and requirements. We agree on the scope of work before we start on a project and I manage the timelines not to overwork myself. This goes back to ensuring that I had a set of skills and experience so when I was initially contacted about an SDE position, I could say “no”, and they suggested I apply for a position in the consulting department. I also didn’t go through the DS&A leetCode monkey dance and could apply for a remote position. I was very much prepared to say “no” to Amazon if all I could get was an SDE position which required me to be on call or relocate. If AWS ProServe does every get to be an environment where I don’t like the work life balance, I will leave here just like I left my other 7 jobs.