8 ms·

Tinnitus is usually only described as a high-pitched ringing, but I think it gets far worse when it's on the lower end of the frequency spectrum. It's much more

by bryans 5y ago

Tinnitus is usually only described as a high-pitched ringing, but I think it gets far worse when it's on the lower end of the frequency spectrum. It's much more noticeable and can make discerning speech very difficult at times. But while the higher frequencies can be somewhat easily tuned out using white noise (like a fan), the lower frequencies are just always there, even when you're listening to music -- there is a weird "warble" to everything, and it's often not easy to tell whether it's the tinnitus or the bassist holding out a note or the last syllable of a word in the vocal. As a musician and amateur sound engineer, the higher tinnitus was fairly manageable, but developing the lower tinnitus was pretty devastating and has largely ruined my ability to hear and mix properly. I've needed to read lips for several years now, as a double-check against what I'm hearing. Phone calls are very difficult, but the increase in video calling has helped. Don't be me. Take care of your ears. Also, remember that noise-cancelling is NOT hearing protection. Buy some musician-quality earplugs (you still hear everything, it's just quieter) and have them with you at all times. Use them even when you think it makes you look dorky at the club or concert or sporting event. It's not worth the psychological torture that is tinnitus, I assure you.

BossingAround 5y ago
> remember that noise-cancelling is NOT hearing protection I fell for this one as well. I wouldn't be to surprised if noise-cancelling could actually cause tinnitus, or make an onset of it worse (though I haven nothing but biased anecdata to argue the opinion).
- Nursie 5y ago
  That is interesting, I was using noise cancelling headphones a lot when mine came started. Of course the morning it came on I was also recovering from being riotously drunk the night before, and I'm more inclined to believe something about that triggered it
  - gompertz 5y ago
    Long term sufferer here.. One specific metal concert 15 years ago did me in (unfortunately). I too found that noise cancelling headphones actually flared up my tinnitus more; and resorted to selling my headphones.
- tux3 5y ago
  I have the same vague suspicion. Nothing credible to support it, but it'd be an interesting data point to collect among the affected population
- chakintosh 5y ago
  One thing is sure is that Noise-cancellinng makes tinnitus more noticeable as it's not being drown out by the environment sounds. And It also allows you to listen to music on a much lower volume, which is actually better for your ears.
  - rhino369 5y ago
    I didn't even realize I had tinnitus until I used noise-canceling headphones.
    - chakintosh 5y ago
      same. visited the doc and he said your ears are perfect. No reason you have tinnitus but i'd swear I have it.
- flyinghamster 5y ago
  The key is to remember that noise cancellation allows you to turn the music _down_.
- jerf 5y ago
  Noise cancelling headphones have always hurt my ears after a relatively short time using them. One of the ways they work is to shove some of their inevitable distortion up into the high frequencies, above what anyone can hear. I've never heard anything, but they definitely hurt my ears. I don't trust them. This is data. It isn't very solid data, because I can't give you sound pressure levels or anything, and it isn't a lot of data. But normal headphones simply don't make my ears hurt, even after hours and hours of usage in a day, which is most every work day for me now. (I mean active, "true" noise cancellation generating "anti-sound" for your eardrums, not the passive things labelled as "noise cancelling" because there's apparently no legal definition of the term and anyone can call anything "noise cancelling".)
sul_tasto 5y ago
I wish there was a more stylish version of aviation headphones. I wear headphones because I don’t want to hear what’s going on around me, especially human dialogue.
- flyinghamster 5y ago
  Good noise-cancelling headphones are amazing. I have a set of Sony WH-1000XM3 cans, and I can play music at a quiet level with them while mowing the lawn. They are a bit more stylish than my Beyerdaymic DT 770 Pros, at least. They've been superseded with an XM4 model at the very least, but I'm happy with mine. I'm normally in the "don't buy Sony" camp, but these are a worthy exception to the rule. Note that this is mostly because I like their sound out of the box and felt no need to fiddle with hidden-behind-an-app controls. I took a look at the legalese when I tried installing the Android app, and noped right out. That being said, I have had tinnitus all my life, not knowing it even had a name until I was an adult. For me it's a steady ~9 kHz tone. If the 'phones are on and the music isn't playing, I hear nothing but EEEEEEEEEEE, much like how I felt when I walked into an anechoic chamber.
traceroute66 5y ago
> Use them even when you think it makes you look dorky at the club or concert or sporting event. Yeah, but that's the problem, just like the Western world attitude to masks and COVID. With COVID, all those Western big babies referring to masks as muzzles, nappies etc. and shouting about "muh freedom". All this despite indisputable objective scientific evidence to the contrary that masks work, let alone all the subjective evidence from countries like Japan where masks are the norm during cold/flu season and so nobody complained about wearing them during the COVID era. Well its the same with hearing protection, people don't wear it because they consider it makes them look dorky and they care more about their perceived image in others eyes than their own personal health. But equally, I think venues such as clubs, cinemas, theatres and operas have to take their part of the blame. Does it really need to be that loud ? Exactly what "experience" is your audience gaining out of the excess loudness apart from hearing damage ?
- flyinghamster 5y ago
  > With COVID, all those Western big babies referring to masks as muzzles, nappies etc. and shouting about "muh freedom". It's that idiotic macho posturing crap, as is all too often the case. There are always muppets pooh-poohing even basic precautions like safety glasses because they're "sissy stuff." Well, you'll cry like a sissy when a metal chip from the grinder flies into your eye. Earplugs fit right into that category.
- bigDinosaur 5y ago
  Not sure I follow: OH&S rules often require adequate hearing protection be warn in employment, and everyone basically follows those rules without complaint (edit: perhaps I should state 'relatively little complaint', compared to protests about masks). If you have to wear earplugs or whatever at a venue, the problem is that it's too loud.
  - bryans 5y ago
    > If you have to wear earplugs or whatever at a venue, the problem is that it's too loud. It's a little more complicated than being "too loud" though. The problem for venue sound is that everything is being projected from a single stereo source at the stage, meaning it generally needs to be at the very least 6dB "louder" at the source to reach the back row, and it usually ends up being more like +12dB for a larger venue -- due to both natural air resistance and bodies soaking up sound. So if it's a high energy gig and people want to dance, they need to be hearing it at a minimum of ~95dB (and we're more accustomed to over 100dB at this point), which means the front row levels may already be upward of 112 or 118, which nobody should be listening to for prolonged periods. But that's just the average SPL. The bigger problem this all leads to, is when things aren't hard-limited properly and every single snare hit for the entire night is spiking to 130dB and over. It would be nice if it were as easy as slapping a limiter on the master and calling it a day, but it takes some pretty intense math to do it properly, because there may be dozens of speakers even in a small venue, and all of those sound waves are intersecting with each other and bouncing off walls and people. And that's presuming the venue was properly sound treated in the first place -- if it wasn't, then all of those compounding sound wave situations are made so much worse and unpredictable. Ultimately, the problem is laziness and greed. Venues absolutely need to invest in supplemental systems to provide reasonable SPL at the middle and back, rather than trying to push it all out of two speaker columns on the stage.
philliphaydon 5y ago
Oh I have tinnitus. Noise cancelling headphones make my head hurt as it feels like it amplifies the ringing.
- The_rationalist 5y ago
  https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jibirin1925/82/1/82_1_133/_article https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jibirin1925/82/1/82_1_1...
  - FollowingTheDao 5y ago
    Yes, klonopin helps reduce my tinnitus. And Tofisopam drug is a different type of benzodiazepine (not for sale in the U.S. or Canada) which blocks the glutamate AMPA receptor. Glutamate excitotoxicity is at the core of tinnitus, and this is why diet also effects the strength and appearance of my tinnitus. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6458046/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6458046/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378595517304872 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03785...
    - The_rationalist 5y ago
      No, your answer makes sense but your are being fooled. Tofisopam is not a benzodiazepine. It is what we call a 2,3 benzodiazepine. This is an exception that makes it radically different than any other benzo. It does not directly bind at GABA-A like e.g klonopin and is a weaker anxyolitic. It's action mechanisms is very atypical, it acts as a PDE inhibitor, as a GABA PAM and as a dopamine presynaptic antagonist, making it mildly stimulant. The effect on phopshodiesterases give it unique pharmacology including neuroprotective effects. Therefore this study shows effectiveness that is theoretically higher than regular benzos. I don't think that regular benzos or tofisopam block the AMPA receptors, although their increase in inhibitory GABA has a similar effect. It would make sense to combine benzos with an NMDA antagonist such as e.g memantine in order to reduce excitotoxicity (or weaker ones like magnesium l-threonate) I advise you to try tofisopam (grandaxin) especially since it is a safe and extensively studied drug. Tofisopam is for sale in the U.S, OTC in practice e.g on rupharma, cosmicnootropics, possibly indiamart, etc You should not take it in combination with klonopin nor any other drug without advice from an expert (spoiler almost no-one is qualified) as interactions are possible. E.g it is a CYP inhibitor like grappefruit juice. note that the dose escalation must be very slow since tofisopam slightly increase heart contractility which can give non-dangerous but scary transient heart palpitations for a limited subset of the population. There are many interesting neuroprotectants/modulator e.g BPC-157, cerebrolysin, etc However the most promising treatment besides tofisopam, is a drug that is only available in japan: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Effectiveness-of-Celeport-(Bifemelane-HCl)-in-the-Katori-Takayasu/9811b66e2d0eb25404385517065d6520e021f5c4 https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Effectiveness-of-Celep... It is likely that tinnitus is already a solved problem, but no one knows it yet besides a few retired scientists. A complete pharmacological response would also look in synaptotrophics and in mitochondria targeted antioxidants, such as SkQ1
tim333 5y ago
>Buy some musician-quality earplugs ...Use them even when you think it makes you look dorky Or as a mild sufferer myself, use cheap wax ear plugs which is what I do. No one actually notices them and you can vary the sound blocking by how much you squish them in. I use a key ring thing to carry them https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131545172517?hash=item1ea0b40a25:g:BAkAAOSwmLlYAM~R https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131545172517?hash=item1ea0b40a25:...

by bryans 5y ago

BossingAround 5y ago

> remember that noise-cancelling is NOT hearing protection I fell for this one as well. I wouldn't be to surprised if noise-cancelling could actually cause tinnitus, or make an onset of it worse (though I haven nothing but biased anecdata to argue the opinion).

Nursie 5y ago
That is interesting, I was using noise cancelling headphones a lot when mine came started. Of course the morning it came on I was also recovering from being riotously drunk the night before, and I'm more inclined to believe something about that triggered it
- gompertz 5y ago
  Long term sufferer here.. One specific metal concert 15 years ago did me in (unfortunately). I too found that noise cancelling headphones actually flared up my tinnitus more; and resorted to selling my headphones.
tux3 5y ago
I have the same vague suspicion. Nothing credible to support it, but it'd be an interesting data point to collect among the affected population
chakintosh 5y ago
One thing is sure is that Noise-cancellinng makes tinnitus more noticeable as it's not being drown out by the environment sounds. And It also allows you to listen to music on a much lower volume, which is actually better for your ears.
- rhino369 5y ago
  I didn't even realize I had tinnitus until I used noise-canceling headphones.
  - chakintosh 5y ago
    same. visited the doc and he said your ears are perfect. No reason you have tinnitus but i'd swear I have it.
flyinghamster 5y ago
The key is to remember that noise cancellation allows you to turn the music _down_.
jerf 5y ago
Noise cancelling headphones have always hurt my ears after a relatively short time using them. One of the ways they work is to shove some of their inevitable distortion up into the high frequencies, above what anyone can hear. I've never heard anything, but they definitely hurt my ears. I don't trust them. This is data. It isn't very solid data, because I can't give you sound pressure levels or anything, and it isn't a lot of data. But normal headphones simply don't make my ears hurt, even after hours and hours of usage in a day, which is most every work day for me now. (I mean active, "true" noise cancellation generating "anti-sound" for your eardrums, not the passive things labelled as "noise cancelling" because there's apparently no legal definition of the term and anyone can call anything "noise cancelling".)

sul_tasto 5y ago

I wish there was a more stylish version of aviation headphones. I wear headphones because I don’t want to hear what’s going on around me, especially human dialogue.

flyinghamster 5y ago
Good noise-cancelling headphones are amazing. I have a set of Sony WH-1000XM3 cans, and I can play music at a quiet level with them while mowing the lawn. They are a bit more stylish than my Beyerdaymic DT 770 Pros, at least. They've been superseded with an XM4 model at the very least, but I'm happy with mine. I'm normally in the "don't buy Sony" camp, but these are a worthy exception to the rule. Note that this is mostly because I like their sound out of the box and felt no need to fiddle with hidden-behind-an-app controls. I took a look at the legalese when I tried installing the Android app, and noped right out. That being said, I have had tinnitus all my life, not knowing it even had a name until I was an adult. For me it's a steady ~9 kHz tone. If the 'phones are on and the music isn't playing, I hear nothing but EEEEEEEEEEE, much like how I felt when I walked into an anechoic chamber.

traceroute66 5y ago

> Use them even when you think it makes you look dorky at the club or concert or sporting event. Yeah, but that's the problem, just like the Western world attitude to masks and COVID. With COVID, all those Western big babies referring to masks as muzzles, nappies etc. and shouting about "muh freedom". All this despite indisputable objective scientific evidence to the contrary that masks work, let alone all the subjective evidence from countries like Japan where masks are the norm during cold/flu season and so nobody complained about wearing them during the COVID era. Well its the same with hearing protection, people don't wear it because they consider it makes them look dorky and they care more about their perceived image in others eyes than their own personal health. But equally, I think venues such as clubs, cinemas, theatres and operas have to take their part of the blame. Does it really need to be that loud ? Exactly what "experience" is your audience gaining out of the excess loudness apart from hearing damage ?

flyinghamster 5y ago
> With COVID, all those Western big babies referring to masks as muzzles, nappies etc. and shouting about "muh freedom". It's that idiotic macho posturing crap, as is all too often the case. There are always muppets pooh-poohing even basic precautions like safety glasses because they're "sissy stuff." Well, you'll cry like a sissy when a metal chip from the grinder flies into your eye. Earplugs fit right into that category.
bigDinosaur 5y ago
Not sure I follow: OH&S rules often require adequate hearing protection be warn in employment, and everyone basically follows those rules without complaint (edit: perhaps I should state 'relatively little complaint', compared to protests about masks). If you have to wear earplugs or whatever at a venue, the problem is that it's too loud.
- bryans 5y ago
  > If you have to wear earplugs or whatever at a venue, the problem is that it's too loud. It's a little more complicated than being "too loud" though. The problem for venue sound is that everything is being projected from a single stereo source at the stage, meaning it generally needs to be at the very least 6dB "louder" at the source to reach the back row, and it usually ends up being more like +12dB for a larger venue -- due to both natural air resistance and bodies soaking up sound. So if it's a high energy gig and people want to dance, they need to be hearing it at a minimum of ~95dB (and we're more accustomed to over 100dB at this point), which means the front row levels may already be upward of 112 or 118, which nobody should be listening to for prolonged periods. But that's just the average SPL. The bigger problem this all leads to, is when things aren't hard-limited properly and every single snare hit for the entire night is spiking to 130dB and over. It would be nice if it were as easy as slapping a limiter on the master and calling it a day, but it takes some pretty intense math to do it properly, because there may be dozens of speakers even in a small venue, and all of those sound waves are intersecting with each other and bouncing off walls and people. And that's presuming the venue was properly sound treated in the first place -- if it wasn't, then all of those compounding sound wave situations are made so much worse and unpredictable. Ultimately, the problem is laziness and greed. Venues absolutely need to invest in supplemental systems to provide reasonable SPL at the middle and back, rather than trying to push it all out of two speaker columns on the stage.

philliphaydon 5y ago

Oh I have tinnitus. Noise cancelling headphones make my head hurt as it feels like it amplifies the ringing.

The_rationalist 5y ago
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jibirin1925/82/1/82_1_133/_article https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jibirin1925/82/1/82_1_1...
- FollowingTheDao 5y ago
  Yes, klonopin helps reduce my tinnitus. And Tofisopam drug is a different type of benzodiazepine (not for sale in the U.S. or Canada) which blocks the glutamate AMPA receptor. Glutamate excitotoxicity is at the core of tinnitus, and this is why diet also effects the strength and appearance of my tinnitus. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6458046/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6458046/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378595517304872 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03785...
  - The_rationalist 5y ago
    No, your answer makes sense but your are being fooled. Tofisopam is not a benzodiazepine. It is what we call a 2,3 benzodiazepine. This is an exception that makes it radically different than any other benzo. It does not directly bind at GABA-A like e.g klonopin and is a weaker anxyolitic. It's action mechanisms is very atypical, it acts as a PDE inhibitor, as a GABA PAM and as a dopamine presynaptic antagonist, making it mildly stimulant. The effect on phopshodiesterases give it unique pharmacology including neuroprotective effects. Therefore this study shows effectiveness that is theoretically higher than regular benzos. I don't think that regular benzos or tofisopam block the AMPA receptors, although their increase in inhibitory GABA has a similar effect. It would make sense to combine benzos with an NMDA antagonist such as e.g memantine in order to reduce excitotoxicity (or weaker ones like magnesium l-threonate) I advise you to try tofisopam (grandaxin) especially since it is a safe and extensively studied drug. Tofisopam is for sale in the U.S, OTC in practice e.g on rupharma, cosmicnootropics, possibly indiamart, etc You should not take it in combination with klonopin nor any other drug without advice from an expert (spoiler almost no-one is qualified) as interactions are possible. E.g it is a CYP inhibitor like grappefruit juice. note that the dose escalation must be very slow since tofisopam slightly increase heart contractility which can give non-dangerous but scary transient heart palpitations for a limited subset of the population. There are many interesting neuroprotectants/modulator e.g BPC-157, cerebrolysin, etc However the most promising treatment besides tofisopam, is a drug that is only available in japan: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Effectiveness-of-Celeport-(Bifemelane-HCl)-in-the-Katori-Takayasu/9811b66e2d0eb25404385517065d6520e021f5c4 https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Effectiveness-of-Celep... It is likely that tinnitus is already a solved problem, but no one knows it yet besides a few retired scientists. A complete pharmacological response would also look in synaptotrophics and in mitochondria targeted antioxidants, such as SkQ1

tim333 5y ago

>Buy some musician-quality earplugs ...Use them even when you think it makes you look dorky Or as a mild sufferer myself, use cheap wax ear plugs which is what I do. No one actually notices them and you can vary the sound blocking by how much you squish them in. I use a key ring thing to carry them https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131545172517?hash=item1ea0b40a25:g:BAkAAOSwmLlYAM~R https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131545172517?hash=item1ea0b40a25:...