4 ms·

Facebook allows praise of Neo-Nazi Ukrainian battalion if it fights Russian army

12 points by haltingproblem 5y ago

Shadonototra 5y ago
Hypocrisy of the west at its finest
chasil 5y ago
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We will sort it out later.
- chasil 5y ago
  Were I to educate a neophyte, I would say that humans nearly went extinct, in an "evolution bottleneck" that left sub-saharan Africans as the only "true humans." Our species interbreeding with the neanderthals, denisovans, and perhaps other primates makes us human. The mix is important.
pelasaco 5y ago
For me it is just Russian propaganda. The Wikipedia is full of contradiction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion which was expected. Fact is they all serve Ukraine a free land, lead by a Jewish https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolodymyr_Selenskyj https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolodymyr_Selenskyj Something to take into consideration is that in the end of the day, a War like that will be just fight by patriotic and nationalist people, or who do we expect to fight for your country in a such scenario?
- haltingproblem 5y ago
  Wikipedia is contradictory. The intercept is Russian propaganda. The fact that the US Congress at one point labeled Azov a white supremacist group is contradictory? Oliver Stone's 2017 doc "Ukraine on Fire" [1], painstakingly documenting Azov's Nazi roots and it's glorification of Nazis who led massacres of Jews and Poles in WW2 is also propaganda? The fact that Stephen Bandera, one of those Nazis and perpetrators of the Holocaust in Ukraine is considered a hero by Azov and is revered and honored by the UKRAINIAN state is also Russian propaganda. The evidence and facts are overwhelming that Nazism is now embedded into the fabric of a modern state. I myself ignored this for a long time and that makes me sick. [1] https://youtu.be/YfC7s1A1KjI https://youtu.be/YfC7s1A1KjI [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
  - pelasaco 5y ago
    I understand that you as proud Indian and Western hater, will do anything to support Russia in this War. At least while that's the official position from India. The relationship from West Ukraine and the Nazis isn't hard to understand. They had to choose a side and they wanted everything but the soviets. The figure of Bandera is a controversial one, but I think this piece of text from the Wikipedia article (linked by you) makes it clear that the facts are more complex than you are saying: "Bandera cultivated German military circles favorable to Ukrainian independence, and organized OUN expeditionary groups. When Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union, he prepared the 30 June 1941 Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood in Lviv, pledging to work with Nazi Germany. For his refusal to rescind the decree, Bandera was arrested by the Gestapo, which put him under house arrest on 5 July 1941, and later between 1942 and 1943[7] sent him to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. In 1944, with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released in the hope that he would be instrumental in deterring the advancing Soviet forces. He set up the headquarters of the re-established Ukrainian Supreme Liberation Council, which worked underground." So his goal was clearly one: Ukrainian independence. From this point of view, I can understand why some circles think good about him. Actually the whole Wikipedia article about him, makes clear his role and reasoning. From that, and his Biography what do you think was extremely bad? What side I would pick? I'm glad that I didn't have to pick one. As Jewish, my family left Germany and Poland after the WWI towards South America. Why I think that it is just Russian Propaganda? Because to bring those "factoids" now is just to justify the invasion of the Ukraine. There is no other intention other than be used in the Information Warfare.
    - unmole 5y ago
      > I understand that you as proud Indian and Western hater, will do anything to support Russia in this War. Which part of the comment supported Russia? > At least while that's the official position from India. Here is India's official position as stated in the Explanation of Vote: https://twitter.com/ambtstirumurti/status/1499073038154874881/photo/2 https://twitter.com/ambtstirumurti/status/149907303815487488... Which part of that supports Russia? > So his goal was clearly one: Ukrainian independence. That is actually a position Indians can fully understand and appreciate. And right now Indians care about getting their citizens stranded in Ukraine back home, ensuring that shipments of potash from Russia are not disrupted and not antagonizing their largest weapons supplier. > Why I think that it is just Russian Propaganda? Because to bring those "factoids" now is just to justify the invasion of the Ukraine. There is no other intention other than be used in the Information Warfare. Again, TFA is about changing the rules of censorship. FB previously considered any support of the Azov Battalion unacceptable because of the neo-Nazi connection. Was FB also a part of Russian propaganda?
- unmole 5y ago
  If neo-Nazis decide to fight for you cause, maybe it would be a good idea to atleast insist that they don't use the Wolfsangel and the Black Sun on their shoulder patches: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Azov_Batallion_shoulder_patch.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Azov_Bat... Oh, and maybe don't have your official Twitter handles posting stuff like this: https://www.twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/1497924614865002497 https://www.twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/149792461486500249...
  - pelasaco 5y ago
    "A similar sign was used in Ukraine by the Social-National Party of Ukraine, Social-National Assembly. and Azov Battalion.Group members claim that the symbol is an abbreviation for the slogan Ідея Нації (Ukrainian for "National Idea") and deny connection with Nazism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel What I personally think about it? I really want to see the bombing in Ukraine stopping. Russia has no rights to invade Ukraine. There is 0 reason for that. There is 0 reason to discuss about other topics which somehow supports the idea that Russia is right. Russia as we all know isn't a land free of racism, right wing groups and hooligans.
    - unmole 5y ago
      > Azov Battalion.Group members claim that the symbol is an abbreviation for the slogan Ідея Нації (Ukrainian for "National Idea") and deny connection with Nazism." There are also people who claim that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of Southern heritage and has nothing to do with slavery or racism. Nobody takes that seriously either. > There is 0 reason to discuss about other topics which somehow supports the idea that Russia is right. The topic of TFA is Facebook tweaking its rules of censorship to allow content that would have been previously blocked. If you don't see a reason to discuss that, maybe just stay away from the the thread instead of claiming that everything is Russian propaganda.
      - pelasaco 5y ago
        > There are also people who claim that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of Southern heritage and has nothing to do with slavery or racism. That's not about what people think, but official position. What I posted you is the official position from the Group (Straight from Wikipedia). That's for what we can hold them accountable for. > If you don't see a reason to discuss that, maybe just stay away from the the thread instead of claiming that everything is Russian propaganda. As if you were the one who would decides what people discuss here or not.
RansomStark 5y ago
The problem with this approach is so obvious to see. Anyone that knows anything of the Azov movement knows they are Nazi's, including Facebook. Facebook's approach here is too allow the praising of Nazi's as heroes while also maintaining the ban on showing the clearly Nazi imagery on their uniforms. So anyone that is not already familiar with the Azov movement and it's doctrine may be convinced that they are simply freedom fighters protecting their nation, real honest heroes. This shows perfectly why censorship is bad. By purging the Azov movements abhorrent rhetoric and imagery while allowing specific praise, Facebook has removed enough shades of grey to turn black to white, lies to truth, and evil to greatness. This is what people mean when they reference 1984, the truth is whatever you are told it is today. But the malleability of truth is not the real risk here. The real risk is that the Azov movement succeeds in their defence of Ukraine, that those that hold them up as heroes begin to believe they can't be all bad, that nobody that is a hero can be a real Nazi, begin to listen more intently to the Azov movements hate. The real risk is that by hiding evil you create more evil, not less.

Shadonototra 5y ago

Hypocrisy of the west at its finest

chasil 5y ago

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We will sort it out later.

chasil 5y ago
Were I to educate a neophyte, I would say that humans nearly went extinct, in an "evolution bottleneck" that left sub-saharan Africans as the only "true humans." Our species interbreeding with the neanderthals, denisovans, and perhaps other primates makes us human. The mix is important.

pelasaco 5y ago

For me it is just Russian propaganda. The Wikipedia is full of contradiction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion which was expected. Fact is they all serve Ukraine a free land, lead by a Jewish https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolodymyr_Selenskyj https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolodymyr_Selenskyj Something to take into consideration is that in the end of the day, a War like that will be just fight by patriotic and nationalist people, or who do we expect to fight for your country in a such scenario?

haltingproblem 5y ago
Wikipedia is contradictory. The intercept is Russian propaganda. The fact that the US Congress at one point labeled Azov a white supremacist group is contradictory? Oliver Stone's 2017 doc "Ukraine on Fire" [1], painstakingly documenting Azov's Nazi roots and it's glorification of Nazis who led massacres of Jews and Poles in WW2 is also propaganda? The fact that Stephen Bandera, one of those Nazis and perpetrators of the Holocaust in Ukraine is considered a hero by Azov and is revered and honored by the UKRAINIAN state is also Russian propaganda. The evidence and facts are overwhelming that Nazism is now embedded into the fabric of a modern state. I myself ignored this for a long time and that makes me sick. [1] https://youtu.be/YfC7s1A1KjI https://youtu.be/YfC7s1A1KjI [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
- pelasaco 5y ago
  I understand that you as proud Indian and Western hater, will do anything to support Russia in this War. At least while that's the official position from India. The relationship from West Ukraine and the Nazis isn't hard to understand. They had to choose a side and they wanted everything but the soviets. The figure of Bandera is a controversial one, but I think this piece of text from the Wikipedia article (linked by you) makes it clear that the facts are more complex than you are saying: "Bandera cultivated German military circles favorable to Ukrainian independence, and organized OUN expeditionary groups. When Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union, he prepared the 30 June 1941 Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood in Lviv, pledging to work with Nazi Germany. For his refusal to rescind the decree, Bandera was arrested by the Gestapo, which put him under house arrest on 5 July 1941, and later between 1942 and 1943[7] sent him to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. In 1944, with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released in the hope that he would be instrumental in deterring the advancing Soviet forces. He set up the headquarters of the re-established Ukrainian Supreme Liberation Council, which worked underground." So his goal was clearly one: Ukrainian independence. From this point of view, I can understand why some circles think good about him. Actually the whole Wikipedia article about him, makes clear his role and reasoning. From that, and his Biography what do you think was extremely bad? What side I would pick? I'm glad that I didn't have to pick one. As Jewish, my family left Germany and Poland after the WWI towards South America. Why I think that it is just Russian Propaganda? Because to bring those "factoids" now is just to justify the invasion of the Ukraine. There is no other intention other than be used in the Information Warfare.
  - unmole 5y ago
    > I understand that you as proud Indian and Western hater, will do anything to support Russia in this War. Which part of the comment supported Russia? > At least while that's the official position from India. Here is India's official position as stated in the Explanation of Vote: https://twitter.com/ambtstirumurti/status/1499073038154874881/photo/2 https://twitter.com/ambtstirumurti/status/149907303815487488... Which part of that supports Russia? > So his goal was clearly one: Ukrainian independence. That is actually a position Indians can fully understand and appreciate. And right now Indians care about getting their citizens stranded in Ukraine back home, ensuring that shipments of potash from Russia are not disrupted and not antagonizing their largest weapons supplier. > Why I think that it is just Russian Propaganda? Because to bring those "factoids" now is just to justify the invasion of the Ukraine. There is no other intention other than be used in the Information Warfare. Again, TFA is about changing the rules of censorship. FB previously considered any support of the Azov Battalion unacceptable because of the neo-Nazi connection. Was FB also a part of Russian propaganda?
unmole 5y ago
If neo-Nazis decide to fight for you cause, maybe it would be a good idea to atleast insist that they don't use the Wolfsangel and the Black Sun on their shoulder patches: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Azov_Batallion_shoulder_patch.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Azov_Bat... Oh, and maybe don't have your official Twitter handles posting stuff like this: https://www.twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/1497924614865002497 https://www.twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/149792461486500249...
- pelasaco 5y ago
  "A similar sign was used in Ukraine by the Social-National Party of Ukraine, Social-National Assembly. and Azov Battalion.Group members claim that the symbol is an abbreviation for the slogan Ідея Нації (Ukrainian for "National Idea") and deny connection with Nazism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel What I personally think about it? I really want to see the bombing in Ukraine stopping. Russia has no rights to invade Ukraine. There is 0 reason for that. There is 0 reason to discuss about other topics which somehow supports the idea that Russia is right. Russia as we all know isn't a land free of racism, right wing groups and hooligans.
  - unmole 5y ago
    > Azov Battalion.Group members claim that the symbol is an abbreviation for the slogan Ідея Нації (Ukrainian for "National Idea") and deny connection with Nazism." There are also people who claim that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of Southern heritage and has nothing to do with slavery or racism. Nobody takes that seriously either. > There is 0 reason to discuss about other topics which somehow supports the idea that Russia is right. The topic of TFA is Facebook tweaking its rules of censorship to allow content that would have been previously blocked. If you don't see a reason to discuss that, maybe just stay away from the the thread instead of claiming that everything is Russian propaganda.
    - pelasaco 5y ago
      > There are also people who claim that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of Southern heritage and has nothing to do with slavery or racism. That's not about what people think, but official position. What I posted you is the official position from the Group (Straight from Wikipedia). That's for what we can hold them accountable for. > If you don't see a reason to discuss that, maybe just stay away from the the thread instead of claiming that everything is Russian propaganda. As if you were the one who would decides what people discuss here or not.

RansomStark 5y ago

The problem with this approach is so obvious to see. Anyone that knows anything of the Azov movement knows they are Nazi's, including Facebook. Facebook's approach here is too allow the praising of Nazi's as heroes while also maintaining the ban on showing the clearly Nazi imagery on their uniforms. So anyone that is not already familiar with the Azov movement and it's doctrine may be convinced that they are simply freedom fighters protecting their nation, real honest heroes. This shows perfectly why censorship is bad. By purging the Azov movements abhorrent rhetoric and imagery while allowing specific praise, Facebook has removed enough shades of grey to turn black to white, lies to truth, and evil to greatness. This is what people mean when they reference 1984, the truth is whatever you are told it is today. But the malleability of truth is not the real risk here. The real risk is that the Azov movement succeeds in their defence of Ukraine, that those that hold them up as heroes begin to believe they can't be all bad, that nobody that is a hero can be a real Nazi, begin to listen more intently to the Azov movements hate. The real risk is that by hiding evil you create more evil, not less.