4 ms·

Honest question: why? Engineers are already compensated way, way above average and have loads of mobility opportunities. I actually work in a news org where mos

by tootie 5y ago

Honest question: why? Engineers are already compensated way, way above average and have loads of mobility opportunities. I actually work in a news org where most of the non-tech people are in one union or another but my team isn't. We have actually had a few union staff who wanted to do coding work and the union essentially blocked them.

CSMastermind 5y ago
> Honest question: why? Because the existing union of news workers demanded that software engineers be included in their membership as part of some negotiation at some point. Basically, it was a way for the union to grow its membership (and dues). It was impossible to opt out of the union and you had to pay dues, I forget how much but I think it was like 2% of your salary or something to the union. Given the option I'm pretty sure most of us would have opted out of the union. I did know a few very senior software engineers who were nominally made managers so they could get out of the forced membership.
- scarface74 5y ago
  I would leave a company if they forced a 2% tax on me to join a union I didn’t want to join after I started working there.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Vote with your feet, just if management changed the role materially. The role would likely be filled quickly by replacement talent desiring the protections such representation offers.
    - scarface74 5y ago
      You mean by someone who would be okay with their compensation being negotiated by collective bargaining? How many of the most aggressive, most talented engineers would be willing to give up their negotiating leverage to a union?
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        Most engineering roles don't require a "most aggressive, most talented" engineer. Someone less aggressive of modest talent is likely still a great fit for the work to be done. 10x-100x developers are overrated unless at an early stage startup where that skill level is crucial to get to product market fit and onward from there to sustainable hyper growth. Also, Dunning–Kruger. If you think you're super talented, allow the market to decide, and avoid organized shops. The data is pretty clear that most folks aren't good at or able to negotiate an outlier comp package (with some orgs not even allowing comp negotiation for equity purposes), so collective bargaining would net them more than them attempting to negotiate on their own. Of course folks at the high end of the comp structure complain, but that seems to be a given regardless and will be ever present.
        scarface74 5y ago
        So, by your definition, the unionized shops would attract only “average” developers. How competitive will they be against companies that are more aggressive about recruitment by offering more talented people more money?
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        You work at a digital sweatshop (AWS [1], who cannot hire fast enough for the talent they bleed) but still don't believe in the merits of organization, so what would the value be in attempting to change your mind? Not rhetorical, I am genuinely curious. Higher level, I have a hypothesis that this boils down to empathy capacity, which some cohorts have more than others (and there is likely a genetic component [2] [3]), and therefore appeals are unlikely to sway opinions). You believe in optimizing for the individual, others believe in optimizing for the collective. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=aws+sweatshop https://www.google.com/search?q=aws+sweatshop [2] https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-finds-that-genes-play-a-role-in-empathy https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-finds-that-genes-p... [3] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.h...
UncleMeat 5y ago
Google made something like $300,000 in profit per employee in 2021. Engineers are indeed compensated way above average but they are not capturing their full economic output.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  Good! That incentivizes them to start their own thing, leading to more innovation for the rest for us.

by tootie 5y ago

CSMastermind 5y ago

> Honest question: why? Because the existing union of news workers demanded that software engineers be included in their membership as part of some negotiation at some point. Basically, it was a way for the union to grow its membership (and dues). It was impossible to opt out of the union and you had to pay dues, I forget how much but I think it was like 2% of your salary or something to the union. Given the option I'm pretty sure most of us would have opted out of the union. I did know a few very senior software engineers who were nominally made managers so they could get out of the forced membership.

scarface74 5y ago
I would leave a company if they forced a 2% tax on me to join a union I didn’t want to join after I started working there.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Vote with your feet, just if management changed the role materially. The role would likely be filled quickly by replacement talent desiring the protections such representation offers.
  - scarface74 5y ago
    You mean by someone who would be okay with their compensation being negotiated by collective bargaining? How many of the most aggressive, most talented engineers would be willing to give up their negotiating leverage to a union?
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Most engineering roles don't require a "most aggressive, most talented" engineer. Someone less aggressive of modest talent is likely still a great fit for the work to be done. 10x-100x developers are overrated unless at an early stage startup where that skill level is crucial to get to product market fit and onward from there to sustainable hyper growth. Also, Dunning–Kruger. If you think you're super talented, allow the market to decide, and avoid organized shops. The data is pretty clear that most folks aren't good at or able to negotiate an outlier comp package (with some orgs not even allowing comp negotiation for equity purposes), so collective bargaining would net them more than them attempting to negotiate on their own. Of course folks at the high end of the comp structure complain, but that seems to be a given regardless and will be ever present.
      - scarface74 5y ago
        So, by your definition, the unionized shops would attract only “average” developers. How competitive will they be against companies that are more aggressive about recruitment by offering more talented people more money?
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        You work at a digital sweatshop (AWS [1], who cannot hire fast enough for the talent they bleed) but still don't believe in the merits of organization, so what would the value be in attempting to change your mind? Not rhetorical, I am genuinely curious. Higher level, I have a hypothesis that this boils down to empathy capacity, which some cohorts have more than others (and there is likely a genetic component [2] [3]), and therefore appeals are unlikely to sway opinions). You believe in optimizing for the individual, others believe in optimizing for the collective. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=aws+sweatshop https://www.google.com/search?q=aws+sweatshop [2] https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-finds-that-genes-play-a-role-in-empathy https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-finds-that-genes-p... [3] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.h...

UncleMeat 5y ago

Google made something like $300,000 in profit per employee in 2021. Engineers are indeed compensated way above average but they are not capturing their full economic output.

DocTomoe 5y ago
Good! That incentivizes them to start their own thing, leading to more innovation for the rest for us.