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I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but do you really see no difference between a limited military campaign against a brutal dictator (and y

I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but do you really see no difference between a limited military campaign against a brutal dictator (and yes, partially over control of oil) vs a campaign to take over a bordering, more-democratic country for mythological ethic reasons, including by shelling cities?

endisneigh 5y ago
Are you suggesting killing innocent people is somehow more righteous if a the area is not democratic? Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East with drones? Again, not to create a false equivalency but I believe the OPs point is that shouldn’t Americans be ostracized?
- harshreality 5y ago
  Killing people isn't righteous. It is, however, more acceptable or tolerable depending on the context and military force and tactics used. Blame what you want, but what percentage of the UN and UN security council denounced American actions? What percentage denounce Russia's current actions?
- brimble 5y ago
  > Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East with drones? The drone war's been horrible, but "carpet bomb" means a specific thing, so, no, the USA did not do that [EDIT] To be clear, this isn't pedantry—that doesn't even figuratively describe what's gone on.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Is this not carpet bombing? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-iraq-us-air-force-bombing-qanus-island-video-a9100526.html?amp https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-ir...
    - brimble 5y ago
      1) Not drones. 2) I assume you brought up drones in particular because the drone war has raged, as you wrote, "all over" the Middle East, which is part of what's alarming about it. Iraq and maybe Syria have experienced US-led saturation bombing during the drone war (but not by drones). Countries subject primarily to the drone part of the war have not.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        1) fair enough. My mistake. And yeah your interpretation of my point is correct.
        brimble 5y ago
        Cool. Again, I find the drone war more than a little worrisome, so we're probably more-or-less on the same "side" here, but drones have not, as far as I know, been used for this sort of "destroy an entire large area kinda indiscriminately" attack—not because they couldn't be, but because that's not the usual tool the US happens to use for that at this time, so if they did it it'd be with traditional aircraft (as in the linked article), and also because the drone war has, as far as I can tell, mostly not involved those sorts of strikes. Iraq is a big exception, but that's not because of the drone war—it's because of the ordinary war that the US waged there. The drone war has caused plenty of collateral damage regardless, of course. I'm just not sure characterizing it as carpet bombing is either accurate or helpful in pinpointing exactly what's uniquely bad about the drone war. In fact, I don't even think the people in charge of it are trying to cause widespread damage beyond their typically-very-limited targets—though lack of accountability ultimately is one of the bad things about it, along with normalizing that kind of extraterritorial violence in the first place, the everything-looks-like-a-nail factor (when all you've got is a Predator drone...), and so on.
ZainRiz 5y ago
"Democracy" is your litmus test, remember that the US has been happy to overthrow democracies and put dictators in power if it better serves their economic interests: - Panama - US invaded it in 1989 and overthrew their leader - Iran - US staged a coup in 1953 Not to mention how the US is actively helping Saudi Arabia's dictators suppress dissent in both Saudi Arabia itself and neighboring Yemen More fun reading: https://www.quora.com/How-many-countries-has-the-USA-invaded-since-1945 https://www.quora.com/How-many-countries-has-the-USA-invaded...

endisneigh 5y ago

Are you suggesting killing innocent people is somehow more righteous if a the area is not democratic? Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East with drones? Again, not to create a false equivalency but I believe the OPs point is that shouldn’t Americans be ostracized?

harshreality 5y ago
Killing people isn't righteous. It is, however, more acceptable or tolerable depending on the context and military force and tactics used. Blame what you want, but what percentage of the UN and UN security council denounced American actions? What percentage denounce Russia's current actions?
brimble 5y ago
> Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East with drones? The drone war's been horrible, but "carpet bomb" means a specific thing, so, no, the USA did not do that [EDIT] To be clear, this isn't pedantry—that doesn't even figuratively describe what's gone on.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Is this not carpet bombing? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-iraq-us-air-force-bombing-qanus-island-video-a9100526.html?amp https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-ir...
  - brimble 5y ago
    1) Not drones. 2) I assume you brought up drones in particular because the drone war has raged, as you wrote, "all over" the Middle East, which is part of what's alarming about it. Iraq and maybe Syria have experienced US-led saturation bombing during the drone war (but not by drones). Countries subject primarily to the drone part of the war have not.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      1) fair enough. My mistake. And yeah your interpretation of my point is correct.
      - brimble 5y ago
        Cool. Again, I find the drone war more than a little worrisome, so we're probably more-or-less on the same "side" here, but drones have not, as far as I know, been used for this sort of "destroy an entire large area kinda indiscriminately" attack—not because they couldn't be, but because that's not the usual tool the US happens to use for that at this time, so if they did it it'd be with traditional aircraft (as in the linked article), and also because the drone war has, as far as I can tell, mostly not involved those sorts of strikes. Iraq is a big exception, but that's not because of the drone war—it's because of the ordinary war that the US waged there. The drone war has caused plenty of collateral damage regardless, of course. I'm just not sure characterizing it as carpet bombing is either accurate or helpful in pinpointing exactly what's uniquely bad about the drone war. In fact, I don't even think the people in charge of it are trying to cause widespread damage beyond their typically-very-limited targets—though lack of accountability ultimately is one of the bad things about it, along with normalizing that kind of extraterritorial violence in the first place, the everything-looks-like-a-nail factor (when all you've got is a Predator drone...), and so on.

ZainRiz 5y ago

"Democracy" is your litmus test, remember that the US has been happy to overthrow democracies and put dictators in power if it better serves their economic interests: - Panama - US invaded it in 1989 and overthrew their leader - Iran - US staged a coup in 1953 Not to mention how the US is actively helping Saudi Arabia's dictators suppress dissent in both Saudi Arabia itself and neighboring Yemen More fun reading: https://www.quora.com/How-many-countries-has-the-USA-invaded-since-1945 https://www.quora.com/How-many-countries-has-the-USA-invaded...