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your comment sounds like Ukrainians have a choice here, and that means you don't understand the nature of genocidal conflict. I grew up in USSR where the histor

by trhway 5y ago

your comment sounds like Ukrainians have a choice here, and that means you don't understand the nature of genocidal conflict. I grew up in USSR where the history of WWII is everywhere. Hitler declared destruction of all Jews and 90% of Slavic. So in December 1941 with Hitler 30km from Moscow your comment would sound the same and would be totally wrong the same way. There wasn't a way to make peace agreement back then and stop the bloodshed. The same way today - there is just no way for Ukrainians to make peace agreement with Putin and stop the bloodshed. It isn't about justice, it is about existence. The only way for Ukrainians to continue to exist is to fight and win that war, and this is what they do. >Ukrainians will live on, and the less destruction there is now, the better equipped they will be to react appropriately when the time comes, but the time just isn't now. That was the logic of 2014, and it was right, it worked, it gave them time to unify and to build better army. Now though Putin is intended to finally solve the "Ukrainian question".

brabel 5y ago
You are being extremely dramatic... whatever it is Putin wants, there has been zero evidence he's looking to eliminate the Ukrainian people (there has been civilian casualties, obviously, even if you're American with high precision bombs, they still are going to end up in the crossfire someetimes - but if anything, conflict experts have been surprised by the slow intensity of the attacks and small deployment of weapons by the Russians - which may hint at them just being careful to not spend too much power upfront rather than just trying to not hurt innocent people, nobody really knows - e.g. they've only used around 75 aircraft out of thousands that they have at their disposal)... you are maybe confusing his desire to deny Ukraine is a separate entity from Russia... at least as I understand it, he thinks of Ukrainians as the same people as Russians, not as inferiors and definitely not as Hitler thought of Jews, for fuck sake. He seems to take issue with Ukraine's existence as a separate country, not just simply with its pure existence! I don't know where you're getting your news, but if this war is looking like a genocide to you, I would suggest you try to look into more reliable news sources (I won't suggest any to avoid biasing you in any way, take your pick).
- trhway 5y ago
  >he thinks of Ukrainians as the same people as Russians, not as inferiors and definitely not as Hitler thought of Jews, for fuck sake. definitely you aren't from Russian nor Ukrainian culture, and thus can't really "appreciate" the 2 last speeches of Putin where he took whatever gloves were still on. His approach here is more like Hitler's to Slavic than Jews - ie. some share of population will still be allowed biological existence while stripped of cultural identity and denied any self-governance. >He seems to take issue with Ukraine's existence as a separate country, not just simply with its pure existence! he denies existence of Ukrainians as a separate ethnicity, in his proclaimed view Ukrainians are just a version of Russians not capable of governing themselves, etc. while you can see his deep hate to the Ukrainians. >they've only used around 75 aircraft out of thousands that they have at their disposal thousands? you're really no aware what is going on. Russia has pretty small number of actually flying combat ready aircraft, and those 75 is all what they could use without leaving the rest of the country completely naked. >whatever it is Putin wants, there has been zero evidence he's looking to eliminate the Ukrainian people you can't listen to his speeches, so you are trying to get the best interpretation possible. Unfortunately Putin isn't going for such an interpretation. In a few days there have already been 1M people who left Ukraine, and will be many more. The resisting will die - he was clear about that, you can find the transcript. And whoever left in depopulated country will be converted to "Russian", and there will be no more Ukrainians there. Forcing people out, and killing or converting the rest, all that on the base of ethnicity - that is textbook ethnical cleansing and genocide.
  - brabel 5y ago
    > definitely you aren't from Russian nor Ukrainian culture Listen, I have Ukrainian/Belarussian family, pls address my arguments and avoid personal attacks like that. > he denies existence of Ukrainians as a separate ethnicity, in his proclaimed view Ukrainians are just a version of Russians not capable of governing themselves That's like saying the USA denies the existence of Texas because it sees Texans as Americans (noticing that Texas was annexed from Mexico not a very long time ago, in case you don't know it). It's ridiculous. I don't agree that Ukraine should be annexed by Russia, that's not what I am saying - what I am saying is that Putin appears to consider Ukrainians as Russians and that's why he wants to, if not annex Ukraine, keep it under Russian's sphere of influence. > thousands? you're really no aware what is going on. Yes, according to all data I've seen, e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/25/europe/russia-ukraine-military-comparison-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/25/europe/russia-ukraine-mil... Maybe you have "insider" information we don't?! > The resisting will die - he was clear about that What do you expect in a war? The resisting to be assisted?!? Does that make any sense to you? > Forcing people out, and killing or converting the rest, all that on the base of ethnicity - that is textbook ethnical cleansing and genocide. It sucks people have to flee to be safe, but this is not happening for the reasons you think it is. It's happening because Ukraine has only one choice on a fight with Russia: to use urban warfare (people have been calling it protracted war) because in open combat, the Ukrainian military would've been destroyed much more easily - which means that they know their only defense is to mix with civilians and they know well what's going to happen. Do you deny the Ukrainian military is hiding in the cities, which is why Russia is attacking the cities? Or you believe that even if Ukrainian forces came out on the field and stayed out of cities, Ukrainian cities would still be bombarded anyway? If you could prove the latter, I would believe you that there's some evil ethnical genocide going on, but fortunately, the only cities being attacked so far appear to be the cities where Ukrainian military is intentionally bringing the fighting to (I am sure they don't like to do that either, but they made a choice and will have to live with that choice).

by trhway 5y ago

brabel 5y ago

You are being extremely dramatic... whatever it is Putin wants, there has been zero evidence he's looking to eliminate the Ukrainian people (there has been civilian casualties, obviously, even if you're American with high precision bombs, they still are going to end up in the crossfire someetimes - but if anything, conflict experts have been surprised by the slow intensity of the attacks and small deployment of weapons by the Russians - which may hint at them just being careful to not spend too much power upfront rather than just trying to not hurt innocent people, nobody really knows - e.g. they've only used around 75 aircraft out of thousands that they have at their disposal)... you are maybe confusing his desire to deny Ukraine is a separate entity from Russia... at least as I understand it, he thinks of Ukrainians as the same people as Russians, not as inferiors and definitely not as Hitler thought of Jews, for fuck sake. He seems to take issue with Ukraine's existence as a separate country, not just simply with its pure existence! I don't know where you're getting your news, but if this war is looking like a genocide to you, I would suggest you try to look into more reliable news sources (I won't suggest any to avoid biasing you in any way, take your pick).

trhway 5y ago
>he thinks of Ukrainians as the same people as Russians, not as inferiors and definitely not as Hitler thought of Jews, for fuck sake. definitely you aren't from Russian nor Ukrainian culture, and thus can't really "appreciate" the 2 last speeches of Putin where he took whatever gloves were still on. His approach here is more like Hitler's to Slavic than Jews - ie. some share of population will still be allowed biological existence while stripped of cultural identity and denied any self-governance. >He seems to take issue with Ukraine's existence as a separate country, not just simply with its pure existence! he denies existence of Ukrainians as a separate ethnicity, in his proclaimed view Ukrainians are just a version of Russians not capable of governing themselves, etc. while you can see his deep hate to the Ukrainians. >they've only used around 75 aircraft out of thousands that they have at their disposal thousands? you're really no aware what is going on. Russia has pretty small number of actually flying combat ready aircraft, and those 75 is all what they could use without leaving the rest of the country completely naked. >whatever it is Putin wants, there has been zero evidence he's looking to eliminate the Ukrainian people you can't listen to his speeches, so you are trying to get the best interpretation possible. Unfortunately Putin isn't going for such an interpretation. In a few days there have already been 1M people who left Ukraine, and will be many more. The resisting will die - he was clear about that, you can find the transcript. And whoever left in depopulated country will be converted to "Russian", and there will be no more Ukrainians there. Forcing people out, and killing or converting the rest, all that on the base of ethnicity - that is textbook ethnical cleansing and genocide.
- brabel 5y ago
  > definitely you aren't from Russian nor Ukrainian culture Listen, I have Ukrainian/Belarussian family, pls address my arguments and avoid personal attacks like that. > he denies existence of Ukrainians as a separate ethnicity, in his proclaimed view Ukrainians are just a version of Russians not capable of governing themselves That's like saying the USA denies the existence of Texas because it sees Texans as Americans (noticing that Texas was annexed from Mexico not a very long time ago, in case you don't know it). It's ridiculous. I don't agree that Ukraine should be annexed by Russia, that's not what I am saying - what I am saying is that Putin appears to consider Ukrainians as Russians and that's why he wants to, if not annex Ukraine, keep it under Russian's sphere of influence. > thousands? you're really no aware what is going on. Yes, according to all data I've seen, e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/25/europe/russia-ukraine-military-comparison-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/25/europe/russia-ukraine-mil... Maybe you have "insider" information we don't?! > The resisting will die - he was clear about that What do you expect in a war? The resisting to be assisted?!? Does that make any sense to you? > Forcing people out, and killing or converting the rest, all that on the base of ethnicity - that is textbook ethnical cleansing and genocide. It sucks people have to flee to be safe, but this is not happening for the reasons you think it is. It's happening because Ukraine has only one choice on a fight with Russia: to use urban warfare (people have been calling it protracted war) because in open combat, the Ukrainian military would've been destroyed much more easily - which means that they know their only defense is to mix with civilians and they know well what's going to happen. Do you deny the Ukrainian military is hiding in the cities, which is why Russia is attacking the cities? Or you believe that even if Ukrainian forces came out on the field and stayed out of cities, Ukrainian cities would still be bombarded anyway? If you could prove the latter, I would believe you that there's some evil ethnical genocide going on, but fortunately, the only cities being attacked so far appear to be the cities where Ukrainian military is intentionally bringing the fighting to (I am sure they don't like to do that either, but they made a choice and will have to live with that choice).