5 ms·

If that were actually the issue they’d be allowed to play, but not on behalf of Russia. Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before R

If that were actually the issue they’d be allowed to play, but not on behalf of Russia. Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? If actions can be taken to allow them to participate then in a sense is that saying the actions are sufficient to compensate for the senseless killing of Ukrainians? If no time or actions can be taken then are we ok with indefinitely ostracizing a group of people? What of their children? Earth has already been down that road, it’s not really great. Best to just punish those who directly contributed to the things with disagree with.

Miner49er 5y ago
> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? I think the idea in this case is that since many Ukranians can't play, Russians shouldn't be able to either. So I would think the sanctions would end when Ukraine isn't fighting anymore, and can participate again. That's at least the IOC's stance. [0] [0] https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participa...
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  But no Ukrainian was banned from playing? Were any even invited?
  - ladon86 5y ago
    You're right! The only fair solution is to drop Grischuk in central Kyiv; if he survives the journey to Norway and arrives on time, he should be allowed to play.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      Not every Ukrainian is located in Kyiv. There are Ukrainians living abroad, that have left Ukraine, and have the ability to leave Ukraine. Why is the standard an imaginary Ukrainian grandmaster currently trapped or engaged in fighting? Perhaps they should cancel it for everyone because this imaginary person can't make it. After all it is also unfair that people can travel from Germany and the US while the imaginary Ukrainian can't.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
shagmin 5y ago
Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries like the Olympics are, are they, or some gray area in between? Aside from that, I kind of view it as a blunt instrument. If there were a way to target Putin and his regime directly within a reasonable amount of risk, I think they'd have chosen that option. In 2014 I think I remember some people under Putin took it as a badge of honor to be on the sanctions list, it seemed like an inconvenience that could be solved by more corruption to work around it. I think if you make it policy to try to isolate a country, but start allowing exceptions, then it's not going to be ordinary Russians that benefit, but instead only connected people and the whole thing loses its bite. And it's a response to a specific action by a specific regime. I don't see why these bans wouldn't be lifted once sanctions are lifted. Having said that, I could see it resulting in a small increase of harassment of Russians in other countries.
- Someone 5y ago
  > Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries like the Olympics are, are they Mostly not, but there’s the Chess Olympiad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_Olympiad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_Olympiad) and the World Team Championship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Team_Chess_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Team_Chess_Championship)
- mwt 5y ago
  > Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries like the Olympics are, are they, or some gray area in between? Most events, and the general culture, is in a grey area. Outside of the Olympiad which features literal national teams, flags still feature prominently. There's of course wild variance in how nationalistic players feel; some like Karjakin are deeply nationalistic while the average probably feels loosely tied. Some even change associations after conflicts with their country of origin, see young prodigy Firouzja moving from Iran to France recently. I can't think of a comparable international sport to compare it to since I mostly know about American sports. Somebody else that follows chess and i.e. football may be able to make that comparison - AFAIK most players play for national teams during nationalized events but don't wear their country's flag prominently when they play for private clubs. Each country has its own federation and playing for one's federation is so deeply ingrained in the culture that the solution "well, just play as yourself, not a national" that seems obvious outsiders is something that organizers and players are hesitant to reach for. I think *a* reason for this is that dipping out of a federation prevents you from playing in that country's championship or representing them in the Olympiad, each of which are a big deal to the top players. There are also almost surely other complications in FIDE rules that I'm not aware of. Suffice it to say that playing under the FIDE or ROC flags is not the sort of thing you'd see until recently.
mdoms 5y ago
> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? How is that relevant? I think no matter what the answer, no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion".
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  >no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion". If it's going to just be countries still in ongoing war or occupation, then I suppose China, India, Turkey, France, Israel, and the US will be next on the list to be uninvited from the tournament. I'm sure we could think of more too.
  - gpm 5y ago
    Funny you should mention Israel. People playing under the Iranian flag aren't allowed to play people under the Israeli flag. Because they represent Iran, and the player under the Israeli flag represents Israel. Not only is this not a new issue, it's an issue where lines are already drawn. This is just a tournament choosing sides where the previous instance that I'm aware of was an entire chess federation...
rosndo 5y ago
> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? Not until the government has changed or reparations have been paid.

Miner49er 5y ago

> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? I think the idea in this case is that since many Ukranians can't play, Russians shouldn't be able to either. So I would think the sanctions would end when Ukraine isn't fighting anymore, and can participate again. That's at least the IOC's stance. [0] [0] https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participa...

s1artibartfast 5y ago
But no Ukrainian was banned from playing? Were any even invited?
- ladon86 5y ago
  You're right! The only fair solution is to drop Grischuk in central Kyiv; if he survives the journey to Norway and arrives on time, he should be allowed to play.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    Not every Ukrainian is located in Kyiv. There are Ukrainians living abroad, that have left Ukraine, and have the ability to leave Ukraine. Why is the standard an imaginary Ukrainian grandmaster currently trapped or engaged in fighting? Perhaps they should cancel it for everyone because this imaginary person can't make it. After all it is also unfair that people can travel from Germany and the US while the imaginary Ukrainian can't.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

shagmin 5y ago

Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries like the Olympics are, are they, or some gray area in between? Aside from that, I kind of view it as a blunt instrument. If there were a way to target Putin and his regime directly within a reasonable amount of risk, I think they'd have chosen that option. In 2014 I think I remember some people under Putin took it as a badge of honor to be on the sanctions list, it seemed like an inconvenience that could be solved by more corruption to work around it. I think if you make it policy to try to isolate a country, but start allowing exceptions, then it's not going to be ordinary Russians that benefit, but instead only connected people and the whole thing loses its bite. And it's a response to a specific action by a specific regime. I don't see why these bans wouldn't be lifted once sanctions are lifted. Having said that, I could see it resulting in a small increase of harassment of Russians in other countries.

Someone 5y ago
> Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries like the Olympics are, are they Mostly not, but there’s the Chess Olympiad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_Olympiad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_Olympiad) and the World Team Championship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Team_Chess_Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Team_Chess_Championship)
mwt 5y ago
> Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries like the Olympics are, are they, or some gray area in between? Most events, and the general culture, is in a grey area. Outside of the Olympiad which features literal national teams, flags still feature prominently. There's of course wild variance in how nationalistic players feel; some like Karjakin are deeply nationalistic while the average probably feels loosely tied. Some even change associations after conflicts with their country of origin, see young prodigy Firouzja moving from Iran to France recently. I can't think of a comparable international sport to compare it to since I mostly know about American sports. Somebody else that follows chess and i.e. football may be able to make that comparison - AFAIK most players play for national teams during nationalized events but don't wear their country's flag prominently when they play for private clubs. Each country has its own federation and playing for one's federation is so deeply ingrained in the culture that the solution "well, just play as yourself, not a national" that seems obvious outsiders is something that organizers and players are hesitant to reach for. I think *a* reason for this is that dipping out of a federation prevents you from playing in that country's championship or representing them in the Olympiad, each of which are a big deal to the top players. There are also almost surely other complications in FIDE rules that I'm not aware of. Suffice it to say that playing under the FIDE or ROC flags is not the sort of thing you'd see until recently.

mdoms 5y ago

> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? How is that relevant? I think no matter what the answer, no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion".

cool_dude85 5y ago
>no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion". If it's going to just be countries still in ongoing war or occupation, then I suppose China, India, Turkey, France, Israel, and the US will be next on the list to be uninvited from the tournament. I'm sure we could think of more too.
- gpm 5y ago
  Funny you should mention Israel. People playing under the Iranian flag aren't allowed to play people under the Israeli flag. Because they represent Iran, and the player under the Israeli flag represents Israel. Not only is this not a new issue, it's an issue where lines are already drawn. This is just a tournament choosing sides where the previous instance that I'm aware of was an entire chess federation...

rosndo 5y ago

> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? Not until the government has changed or reparations have been paid.