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I find your answer emblematic of why the war has started and will probably only end after very bad losses for both sides (Ukraine specially, as the theater of w

by brabel 5y ago

I find your answer emblematic of why the war has started and will probably only end after very bad losses for both sides (Ukraine specially, as the theater of war). You speak as if Ukraine alone had demands to make, despite the fact that its territory is currently occupied and whatever leverage it had before the conflict started, it has lost already. The only way to stop a conflict peacefully while your country is occupied is to make concessions. I understand you might think Ukraine must not make any concessions at all because Russia is on the wrong here... I agree Russia is bad and a bully in this story... but that doesn't matter if the objective is to stop the war. The objective, right now, is not to make justice, that's beyond anyone's reach by a long margin... it's to avoid further loss of life and Ukrainian infrastructure (which if destroyed, will take a full generation to be re-built, and will be paid for by several future generations). Russia is somewhat weakened by the Western World's sanctions, but Ukraine is on its knees right now and quite frankly on its last few breaths as an independent nation, despite everyone rooting for them (there wouldn't be 60km of Russian tanks just outside Kyiv otherwise, with the other largest cities except Odessa already surrounded by the Russian army, and already badly damaged). When a bully has a knife to your throat you don't get to make demands, unfortunately. I am not sure bravery is something to be admired when you know that the cost of your bravery is your country being completely destroyed and whatever you were fithting for simply being bombed out of existence. Ukrainians will live on, and the less destruction there is now, the better equipped they will be to react appropriately when the time comes, but the time just isn't now.

trhway 5y ago
your comment sounds like Ukrainians have a choice here, and that means you don't understand the nature of genocidal conflict. I grew up in USSR where the history of WWII is everywhere. Hitler declared destruction of all Jews and 90% of Slavic. So in December 1941 with Hitler 30km from Moscow your comment would sound the same and would be totally wrong the same way. There wasn't a way to make peace agreement back then and stop the bloodshed. The same way today - there is just no way for Ukrainians to make peace agreement with Putin and stop the bloodshed. It isn't about justice, it is about existence. The only way for Ukrainians to continue to exist is to fight and win that war, and this is what they do. >Ukrainians will live on, and the less destruction there is now, the better equipped they will be to react appropriately when the time comes, but the time just isn't now. That was the logic of 2014, and it was right, it worked, it gave them time to unify and to build better army. Now though Putin is intended to finally solve the "Ukrainian question".
- brabel 5y ago
  You are being extremely dramatic... whatever it is Putin wants, there has been zero evidence he's looking to eliminate the Ukrainian people (there has been civilian casualties, obviously, even if you're American with high precision bombs, they still are going to end up in the crossfire someetimes - but if anything, conflict experts have been surprised by the slow intensity of the attacks and small deployment of weapons by the Russians - which may hint at them just being careful to not spend too much power upfront rather than just trying to not hurt innocent people, nobody really knows - e.g. they've only used around 75 aircraft out of thousands that they have at their disposal)... you are maybe confusing his desire to deny Ukraine is a separate entity from Russia... at least as I understand it, he thinks of Ukrainians as the same people as Russians, not as inferiors and definitely not as Hitler thought of Jews, for fuck sake. He seems to take issue with Ukraine's existence as a separate country, not just simply with its pure existence! I don't know where you're getting your news, but if this war is looking like a genocide to you, I would suggest you try to look into more reliable news sources (I won't suggest any to avoid biasing you in any way, take your pick).
  - trhway 5y ago
    >he thinks of Ukrainians as the same people as Russians, not as inferiors and definitely not as Hitler thought of Jews, for fuck sake. definitely you aren't from Russian nor Ukrainian culture, and thus can't really "appreciate" the 2 last speeches of Putin where he took whatever gloves were still on. His approach here is more like Hitler's to Slavic than Jews - ie. some share of population will still be allowed biological existence while stripped of cultural identity and denied any self-governance. >He seems to take issue with Ukraine's existence as a separate country, not just simply with its pure existence! he denies existence of Ukrainians as a separate ethnicity, in his proclaimed view Ukrainians are just a version of Russians not capable of governing themselves, etc. while you can see his deep hate to the Ukrainians. >they've only used around 75 aircraft out of thousands that they have at their disposal thousands? you're really no aware what is going on. Russia has pretty small number of actually flying combat ready aircraft, and those 75 is all what they could use without leaving the rest of the country completely naked. >whatever it is Putin wants, there has been zero evidence he's looking to eliminate the Ukrainian people you can't listen to his speeches, so you are trying to get the best interpretation possible. Unfortunately Putin isn't going for such an interpretation. In a few days there have already been 1M people who left Ukraine, and will be many more. The resisting will die - he was clear about that, you can find the transcript. And whoever left in depopulated country will be converted to "Russian", and there will be no more Ukrainians there. Forcing people out, and killing or converting the rest, all that on the base of ethnicity - that is textbook ethnical cleansing and genocide.
seebs 5y ago
If you make concessions in a circumstance like this, you just have the same problem again in a few years. If doing this gets Putin anything at all that he wants, it will keep happening. We know this because it already did, more than once, and because we've all seen it before many times. Every concession made strengthens Putin and reinforces his desire to keep trying this. If Ukraine's goal is to exist, concessions of any kind at all to Putin make that harder. It's not "because Russia is wrong" that I don't think they should make concessions. It's because, if they make concessions, Russia will try again, because it worked. Also, I think you're massively overestimating the strength of Russia's position here.
- brabel 5y ago
  > If you make concessions in a circumstance like this, you just have the same problem again in a few years. If everyone thought like that, no negotiation would ever result in agreement.

by brabel 5y ago

trhway 5y ago

your comment sounds like Ukrainians have a choice here, and that means you don't understand the nature of genocidal conflict. I grew up in USSR where the history of WWII is everywhere. Hitler declared destruction of all Jews and 90% of Slavic. So in December 1941 with Hitler 30km from Moscow your comment would sound the same and would be totally wrong the same way. There wasn't a way to make peace agreement back then and stop the bloodshed. The same way today - there is just no way for Ukrainians to make peace agreement with Putin and stop the bloodshed. It isn't about justice, it is about existence. The only way for Ukrainians to continue to exist is to fight and win that war, and this is what they do. >Ukrainians will live on, and the less destruction there is now, the better equipped they will be to react appropriately when the time comes, but the time just isn't now. That was the logic of 2014, and it was right, it worked, it gave them time to unify and to build better army. Now though Putin is intended to finally solve the "Ukrainian question".

brabel 5y ago
You are being extremely dramatic... whatever it is Putin wants, there has been zero evidence he's looking to eliminate the Ukrainian people (there has been civilian casualties, obviously, even if you're American with high precision bombs, they still are going to end up in the crossfire someetimes - but if anything, conflict experts have been surprised by the slow intensity of the attacks and small deployment of weapons by the Russians - which may hint at them just being careful to not spend too much power upfront rather than just trying to not hurt innocent people, nobody really knows - e.g. they've only used around 75 aircraft out of thousands that they have at their disposal)... you are maybe confusing his desire to deny Ukraine is a separate entity from Russia... at least as I understand it, he thinks of Ukrainians as the same people as Russians, not as inferiors and definitely not as Hitler thought of Jews, for fuck sake. He seems to take issue with Ukraine's existence as a separate country, not just simply with its pure existence! I don't know where you're getting your news, but if this war is looking like a genocide to you, I would suggest you try to look into more reliable news sources (I won't suggest any to avoid biasing you in any way, take your pick).
- trhway 5y ago
  >he thinks of Ukrainians as the same people as Russians, not as inferiors and definitely not as Hitler thought of Jews, for fuck sake. definitely you aren't from Russian nor Ukrainian culture, and thus can't really "appreciate" the 2 last speeches of Putin where he took whatever gloves were still on. His approach here is more like Hitler's to Slavic than Jews - ie. some share of population will still be allowed biological existence while stripped of cultural identity and denied any self-governance. >He seems to take issue with Ukraine's existence as a separate country, not just simply with its pure existence! he denies existence of Ukrainians as a separate ethnicity, in his proclaimed view Ukrainians are just a version of Russians not capable of governing themselves, etc. while you can see his deep hate to the Ukrainians. >they've only used around 75 aircraft out of thousands that they have at their disposal thousands? you're really no aware what is going on. Russia has pretty small number of actually flying combat ready aircraft, and those 75 is all what they could use without leaving the rest of the country completely naked. >whatever it is Putin wants, there has been zero evidence he's looking to eliminate the Ukrainian people you can't listen to his speeches, so you are trying to get the best interpretation possible. Unfortunately Putin isn't going for such an interpretation. In a few days there have already been 1M people who left Ukraine, and will be many more. The resisting will die - he was clear about that, you can find the transcript. And whoever left in depopulated country will be converted to "Russian", and there will be no more Ukrainians there. Forcing people out, and killing or converting the rest, all that on the base of ethnicity - that is textbook ethnical cleansing and genocide.

seebs 5y ago

If you make concessions in a circumstance like this, you just have the same problem again in a few years. If doing this gets Putin anything at all that he wants, it will keep happening. We know this because it already did, more than once, and because we've all seen it before many times. Every concession made strengthens Putin and reinforces his desire to keep trying this. If Ukraine's goal is to exist, concessions of any kind at all to Putin make that harder. It's not "because Russia is wrong" that I don't think they should make concessions. It's because, if they make concessions, Russia will try again, because it worked. Also, I think you're massively overestimating the strength of Russia's position here.

brabel 5y ago
> If you make concessions in a circumstance like this, you just have the same problem again in a few years. If everyone thought like that, no negotiation would ever result in agreement.