5 ms·

This tired old argument is getting threadbare. Fairness, to the privileged, can look like persecution. I.e. Because some parents are more interested in boosti

This tired old argument is getting threadbare. Fairness, to the privileged, can look like persecution. I.e. Because some parents are more interested in boosting their children scholastically when very young, doesn't mean they deserve a disproportionate share of the public school services. They've been getting it because helicopter parents are pushy. When there's pushback they make these spurious claims of being more deserving, and somehow persecuted.

tandymodel100 5y ago
qgin 5y ago
It seems like it depends on whether you’re looking at students as individuals or not. If an individual student is getting less than average access to resources in order to statistically balance allocation of resources by race, that individual student isn’t getting (or even asking for) a “disproportionate share of resources”. They’re asking for an equal share, but in reality getting less because what group they are being categorized into.
tsol 5y ago
Asian immigrants are privileged? They have high of poverty, this is a weird take just because some Asians are well to do
sniperjoe360 5y ago
Joe with all due respect your logic is flawed. Parents who are interested in boosting their children scholastically are not necessarily privelidged. They could be privelidged. But wouldn't it also make sense for the least privelidged parents to also want to boost their children scholastically? Do you have to be privelidged to be a "helicopter parent?"
- Lascaille 5y ago
  >Parents who are interested in boosting their children scholastically are not necessarily privelidged. Believing in the value of education and pushing your children to achieve educationally is an inherent demonstration of the possession of privilege.
  - nescioquid 5y ago
    If "believing in the value of education...is an inherent demonstration of the possession of privilege", then mere belief can render one privileged or unprivileged. This sort of thinking seems...religious.
    - thelock85 5y ago
      Agree to some extent but you are not addressing the “pushing toward achievement” part of the comment. A parent can only push as far as their ability to identify, access and afford opportunities, and that’s where privilege does play a major role in terms of information asymmetry and spending power.
      - ryan93 5y ago
        information asymmetry? what parent doesnt have access to the knowledge that doing well on your homework and tests in school will lead to better college opportunities.
        Lascaille 5y ago
        >access to the knowledge Having 'access to knowledge' is one thing. Believing that knowledge - say, from personal experience of it applying to people you know - is privilege.
        thelock85 5y ago
        Examples of information asymmetry: - not understanding standard of care regulations around early childhood education and thus believing that your child's current learning environment is of sufficient quality or not knowing there are paths to advocate/demand more - having your child attend a school that lumps all students with learning differences and behavioral issues in the same classroom (for all kinds of systemic reasons like the lack of qualified special education teachers), and not understanding how to get your child diagnosed in a way that gives them legally-mandated better accommodations... like more time to take the "tests in school" - having the school itself be unaware or untrained in all of the accommodations your child could possibly need, or having the school be ambiguous about where learning/values/behaviors are the responsibility of the school vs. home, and thus having no direction on how to partner with your child's school An okay analogy is "doing taxes". Sure all of the rules, codes, regulations are there in plain sight, but unless you know someone who has maximized their tax return under a similar situation as your own, then you're just doing your best unless you have the resources to hire an accountant. Similarly, a parent can know all of the ingredients that go into a successful education pathway, and can endeavor to understand all of the rules and regulations. But with no understanding of how these things play out for their kid's specific use case (or with no money for tutors, test prep, application coaches, college visits) then it can be tough sledding in actual practice.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Sorry, that word has turned out to be a touchstone. I meant it in the sense of "receiving a disproportionate share of public support". In this case, boosting their children scholastically then expecting (and getting) extra public money/support for their schooling. It's great for a parent to boost their children. But to have benefitted from extra attention for their childsren due to what was essentially the parents' attributes, then complain when it's suggested public money could be allocated more evenly, is 'equality looking like persecution'. Just read the OP to get a taste of it.
ThrowawayR2 5y ago
> "Fairness, to the privileged, can look like persecution." Given the history of anti-Asian racism in the US, I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that Asians are "privileged". As for "parents are more interested in boosting their children scholastically", this being HN, few here will see that as anything other than an absolutely good thing that we should want all parents, regardless of color, gender, creed, or anything else, to be doing.
- redwall_hp 5y ago
  The Chinese Exclusion/Geary acts weren't even repealed until the 1940s, when they "generously" allowed ~100 to immigrate per year. It prevented naturalization on grounds of ethnicity, prevented extant residents from coming back if they left, and restricted land ownership. Then there was that whole Japanese internment camp and mass land seizure thing too. (Check out how much California farm land is worth now: it was a generational theft on a massive scale.) The earlier half of the 20th century was an awful time to be asian in America, and the systematic suppression of generational wealth for purely racial reasons is not an effect that just goes away overnight.
- ashwagary 5y ago
  Compared to the black native population, Asians are extremely privileged. This is not a controversial statement. Black Americans fought for Asian's rights to immigrate to the US and once they arrived, Asians were turned into a buffer class because they mostly had no interest in fighting the global system of white supremacy (partially due to ignorance). This made them less of a threat to the ruling class and dominant society. This game is still being played (even in this thread) and many recent non-white immigrants are still too ignorant of unsanitized/heterodox US history to understand why native blacks fought & died for them to come here in the first place. US mainstream historical propaganda - 1 Native black Americans - 0
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Certainly true. And its the very point - not everybody helps their children. Asian parents by-and-large do. ANd certainly the school system favors their children. That's the premise we started with. The children are doing well because their parents are helping them. Then fudged the rules so their children got the lions share of attention and programs. Those without parents that helps them (culturally, economically) do poorly. Through no fault of their own (being born to the wrong parents?) Try to help all the children, and the cry of "Reverse racism!" or some such nonsense gets raised every time.
djanogo 5y ago
"..disproportionate share of the public. They've been getting it because helicopter parents are pushy" What degenerate world are we living in, parents wanting their children to succeed and do what they know is causing _you_ to discriminate them for their success?
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  What part of the parents' action equates to "should get all the public money"? It's public money - meant for everybody. Ignoring that, whitewashing fairness as discrimination, is exactly my point. Thank you for illustrating this sense of outrage perfectly.
evocatus 5y ago
My parents fled from active warfare. My father had AK47s pointed at his chest. They came to my current country of residence with very meager means. None of them participated in local politics or were involved with the school board. Because they both experienced poverty, violence, and actual warfare, they understood the value of education - to prevent me from falling into similar circumstances. I suppose, to you, this now constitutes privilege? I always thought this was something reserved for the whites. Or, are you bringing the notion of "white privilege" into question? Otherwise, it seems that you are implying that I am not deserving of preferential treatment based on my race, and that I have not experienced any particular form of persecution.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Putting words in my mouth. I suggest re-reading what I posted and thinking hard. I'll not respond to this blackmail.
  - evocatus 5y ago
    That's OK. Your position is already clear enough.

tandymodel100 5y ago

qgin 5y ago

It seems like it depends on whether you’re looking at students as individuals or not. If an individual student is getting less than average access to resources in order to statistically balance allocation of resources by race, that individual student isn’t getting (or even asking for) a “disproportionate share of resources”. They’re asking for an equal share, but in reality getting less because what group they are being categorized into.

tsol 5y ago

Asian immigrants are privileged? They have high of poverty, this is a weird take just because some Asians are well to do

sniperjoe360 5y ago

Joe with all due respect your logic is flawed. Parents who are interested in boosting their children scholastically are not necessarily privelidged. They could be privelidged. But wouldn't it also make sense for the least privelidged parents to also want to boost their children scholastically? Do you have to be privelidged to be a "helicopter parent?"

Lascaille 5y ago
>Parents who are interested in boosting their children scholastically are not necessarily privelidged. Believing in the value of education and pushing your children to achieve educationally is an inherent demonstration of the possession of privilege.
- nescioquid 5y ago
  If "believing in the value of education...is an inherent demonstration of the possession of privilege", then mere belief can render one privileged or unprivileged. This sort of thinking seems...religious.
  - thelock85 5y ago
    Agree to some extent but you are not addressing the “pushing toward achievement” part of the comment. A parent can only push as far as their ability to identify, access and afford opportunities, and that’s where privilege does play a major role in terms of information asymmetry and spending power.
    - ryan93 5y ago
      information asymmetry? what parent doesnt have access to the knowledge that doing well on your homework and tests in school will lead to better college opportunities.
      - Lascaille 5y ago
        >access to the knowledge Having 'access to knowledge' is one thing. Believing that knowledge - say, from personal experience of it applying to people you know - is privilege.
      - thelock85 5y ago
        Examples of information asymmetry: - not understanding standard of care regulations around early childhood education and thus believing that your child's current learning environment is of sufficient quality or not knowing there are paths to advocate/demand more - having your child attend a school that lumps all students with learning differences and behavioral issues in the same classroom (for all kinds of systemic reasons like the lack of qualified special education teachers), and not understanding how to get your child diagnosed in a way that gives them legally-mandated better accommodations... like more time to take the "tests in school" - having the school itself be unaware or untrained in all of the accommodations your child could possibly need, or having the school be ambiguous about where learning/values/behaviors are the responsibility of the school vs. home, and thus having no direction on how to partner with your child's school An okay analogy is "doing taxes". Sure all of the rules, codes, regulations are there in plain sight, but unless you know someone who has maximized their tax return under a similar situation as your own, then you're just doing your best unless you have the resources to hire an accountant. Similarly, a parent can know all of the ingredients that go into a successful education pathway, and can endeavor to understand all of the rules and regulations. But with no understanding of how these things play out for their kid's specific use case (or with no money for tutors, test prep, application coaches, college visits) then it can be tough sledding in actual practice.
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Sorry, that word has turned out to be a touchstone. I meant it in the sense of "receiving a disproportionate share of public support". In this case, boosting their children scholastically then expecting (and getting) extra public money/support for their schooling. It's great for a parent to boost their children. But to have benefitted from extra attention for their childsren due to what was essentially the parents' attributes, then complain when it's suggested public money could be allocated more evenly, is 'equality looking like persecution'. Just read the OP to get a taste of it.

ThrowawayR2 5y ago

> "Fairness, to the privileged, can look like persecution." Given the history of anti-Asian racism in the US, I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that Asians are "privileged". As for "parents are more interested in boosting their children scholastically", this being HN, few here will see that as anything other than an absolutely good thing that we should want all parents, regardless of color, gender, creed, or anything else, to be doing.

redwall_hp 5y ago
The Chinese Exclusion/Geary acts weren't even repealed until the 1940s, when they "generously" allowed ~100 to immigrate per year. It prevented naturalization on grounds of ethnicity, prevented extant residents from coming back if they left, and restricted land ownership. Then there was that whole Japanese internment camp and mass land seizure thing too. (Check out how much California farm land is worth now: it was a generational theft on a massive scale.) The earlier half of the 20th century was an awful time to be asian in America, and the systematic suppression of generational wealth for purely racial reasons is not an effect that just goes away overnight.
ashwagary 5y ago
Compared to the black native population, Asians are extremely privileged. This is not a controversial statement. Black Americans fought for Asian's rights to immigrate to the US and once they arrived, Asians were turned into a buffer class because they mostly had no interest in fighting the global system of white supremacy (partially due to ignorance). This made them less of a threat to the ruling class and dominant society. This game is still being played (even in this thread) and many recent non-white immigrants are still too ignorant of unsanitized/heterodox US history to understand why native blacks fought & died for them to come here in the first place. US mainstream historical propaganda - 1 Native black Americans - 0
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Certainly true. And its the very point - not everybody helps their children. Asian parents by-and-large do. ANd certainly the school system favors their children. That's the premise we started with. The children are doing well because their parents are helping them. Then fudged the rules so their children got the lions share of attention and programs. Those without parents that helps them (culturally, economically) do poorly. Through no fault of their own (being born to the wrong parents?) Try to help all the children, and the cry of "Reverse racism!" or some such nonsense gets raised every time.

djanogo 5y ago

"..disproportionate share of the public. They've been getting it because helicopter parents are pushy" What degenerate world are we living in, parents wanting their children to succeed and do what they know is causing _you_ to discriminate them for their success?

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
What part of the parents' action equates to "should get all the public money"? It's public money - meant for everybody. Ignoring that, whitewashing fairness as discrimination, is exactly my point. Thank you for illustrating this sense of outrage perfectly.

evocatus 5y ago

My parents fled from active warfare. My father had AK47s pointed at his chest. They came to my current country of residence with very meager means. None of them participated in local politics or were involved with the school board. Because they both experienced poverty, violence, and actual warfare, they understood the value of education - to prevent me from falling into similar circumstances. I suppose, to you, this now constitutes privilege? I always thought this was something reserved for the whites. Or, are you bringing the notion of "white privilege" into question? Otherwise, it seems that you are implying that I am not deserving of preferential treatment based on my race, and that I have not experienced any particular form of persecution.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Putting words in my mouth. I suggest re-reading what I posted and thinking hard. I'll not respond to this blackmail.
- evocatus 5y ago
  That's OK. Your position is already clear enough.