7 ms·

Wouldn't Africa be better off if English became the most spoken language? There are more resources, technical and otherwise, available in English than Swahili.

Wouldn't Africa be better off if English became the most spoken language? There are more resources, technical and otherwise, available in English than Swahili. I wonder what the income effect of knowing English is for an Indian, compared to someone who only knows Hindi. I'd guess that it's significant.

smabie 5y ago
Of course it would be better off, but you can say that for a lot of places / a lot of languages. I lived in Tanzania for a couple years and learned a bit of swahili and the lack of online resources is a huge barrier for education. If you only know Swahili, the world is very small.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  There is a Swahili course on Duolingo now. I didn't try it yet, but usually the Duolingo courses are the best for the parts they cover.
daemoens 5y ago
Swahili became the largest language over decades . Also this is only for central/east Africa not the entire continent.
qiskit 5y ago
> Wouldn't Africa be better off if English became the most spoken language? No. Superficially it may seem like it but practically it would stagnate their native languages and dumb down the population. > There are more resources, technical and otherwise, available in English than Swahili. Yes there is. But the exercise of translating resources to your own language helps advance a language and a peoples. A few days ago we had a submission about how some of the translators of goethe became some of the best english writers. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523802 All you have to do is look at the resurgence of europe and european culture as europe "abandoned" latin in favor of the native languages. We wouldn't have shakespeare without the push towards linguistic nationalism - the move to translate bible, etc to one's own native language. > I wonder what the income effect of knowing English is for an Indian, compared to someone who only knows Hindi. I'd guess that it's significant. It depends on whether india supports an english-first system or hindi first system. Besides only a small fraction of jobs within each country requires english. English dependence can be viewed as why india and so much of africa is so poor and undeveloped. You need a healthy amount of national pride to develop your country. Japan, South Korea, China, etc developed through their own languages. Doesn't mean I think everyone should abandon english. Learn what you want, but foster and develop your own languages.
- digisign 5y ago
  The suggestion wasn't to abandon native languages, it was to prefer English over Swahili as a 'lingua-franca' across regions.
  - qiskit 5y ago
    The suggestion was to demote the native language in favor of english since english had the knowledge. My point was to elevate the native language by bringing that knowledge ( english, arabic, russian, chinese, french, etc ) into your native language. > it was to prefer English over Swahili as a 'lingua-franca' across regions. That's what I'm against. And it's a good thing england didn't prefer french ( lingua-franca ) over its native language or we'd all be speaking french. It's a good thing descartes was translated into english rather than everyone speaking french. From a practical standpoint, it just makes sense to prioritize your native language.
    - digisign 5y ago
      It sounds like you're still missing that Swahili is not the native language in most places in Africa.
    - acheron 5y ago
      "lingua franca" does not mean French, if that's what you're implying. It originally referred to a trade language used by Italians.
- bluedevil2k 5y ago
  > dumb down the population. Got any stats or studies that prove this otherwise ridiculously naive statement?
- rory 5y ago
  > English dependence can be viewed as why india and so much of africa is so poor and undeveloped. That seems like a ridiculous assertion. How about Ireland?
- bluedevil2k 5y ago
ngc248 5y ago
There are 22 official languages in India and there is no national language. In most schools in most cities it is english first (at home anyways you would be speaking your mother tongue) >>> English dependence can be viewed as why india and so much of africa is so poor and undeveloped. You need a healthy amount of national pride to develop your country. Japan, South Korea, China, etc developed through their own languages. No just national pride is not enough to develop. "development" is a complex issue which can't be boiled down to one or two reasons.
- alangibson 5y ago
  > English dependence can be viewed as why india and so much of africa is so poor and undeveloped. This makes no sense. The USA primarily speaks the language of a country an ocean away that they fought multiple wars against.
  - Bayart 5y ago
    The country they directly immigrated from. You argument would make more sense if the 13 colonies were made of native North Americans.
    - oddx 5y ago
      Better example in this context is Singapore.
    - alangibson 5y ago
      > The country they directly immigrated from. Less than 10% of Americans claim English ancestry. There were later waves that dwarfed English immigration.
      - Bayart 5y ago
        First of all I was referring to the American war of independence era. Second, as I understand it English or British ancestry is very under-reported in the US due to it being the default and people focus on more exotic, original origins.
kccqzy 5y ago
A language encodes so much of a people's culture and tradition that giving it up is not a choice to be made lightly. Don't succumb to linguistic imperialism.
LAC-Tech 5y ago
Africa is really huge. 1.4 billion people, Cape Town is about as close to Cairo as New York is to Rio de Janeiro. So I mean maybe, but given the above that's a bit of a challenge.
bnralt 5y ago
If you look at the numbers, it seems like English is the most spoken language in Africa. It's also the official language of the most populous African nation (Nigeria).
Semaphor 5y ago
In South Africa, English is the most spoken language (of their 11 official ones). It’s the one almost everyone understands, brown, black, white. But people still have their own languages. Afrikaans, all the former tribal languages, and probably more I don’t know about. My experience is rather narrow, but besides some very young (pre 1st grade) children who only spoke their tribal language (Request: If anyone is offering online tutoring in Sesotho, I’d love to get contacted), I never encountered anyone who didn’t speak English.
antonvs 5y ago
It seems to me this article is pushing an ideal that doesn't really exist. The article itself admits that "Africa’s Swahili-speaking zone now extends across a full third of the continent." That excludes two-thirds of the continent. For example, in South Africa, there are a whopping eleven official languages, including Xhosa and Zulu (both so-called "Bantu" languages like Swahili), but Swahili is not one of them. The same is true of most other Southern African countries: Angola, Botswana, Lesotho, Mozambique, Namibia, Swaziland, Zambia, Zimbabwe. As another example, Wikipedia has a list of 46 (!) languages spoken in Angola: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Angola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Angola . Swahili is not included. There has been an effort to begin teaching Swahili in schools in both South Africa and Botswana, at least. But such efforts don't have a good track record of success. Take a look at Ireland, where students are taught the Irish language in school but, for the most part, are terrible at it. It seems unlikely that imposing a language on countries that don't natively speak it will succeed.
- kzrdude 5y ago
  Not Africa but if 46 languages gets an exclam then maybe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people_of_New_Guinea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people_of_New_Gui... is interesting to you :)
- jgwil2 5y ago
  > so-called "Bantu" languages Are you implying that Bantu languages don't exist?
  - bruce511 5y ago
    I can't speak for the original poster, but Bantu as a word has pergoritive associations, which mean it's not commonly used today. In South Africa during apartheid, Bantu was used as a synonym for Black. The "self governing" regions were known as Bantustans and so on. Like with most words, Bantu has a neutral actual meaning, but it's been corrupted by use and would not typically be used by a polite (white) person today - at least in Southern Africa.
gostsamo 5y ago
French is also widely spoken language there. So, choosing a third one might be a compromise or which I suspect more is an attempt at decolonization. After all, if you are trying to establish your independence and proud identity, using the languages of the people who were trading you like cattle might not be the most uplifting idea.
- lelanthran 5y ago
  Maybe. Cultural center dentity is all well and good but should take a back seat to economic prosperity. Arguments using emotionally loaded terms like "languages of the people who were trading you like cattle " move the focus from prosperity to social justice. After all, when making the reverse argument in favour of English, you wouldn't want to hear "why push for a language best suited to trading cattle"? As much as you may want cultural heritage, it's better for the individual to be fluent in English than in Swahili.
  - gostsamo 5y ago
    Well, if you are not the one traded like cattle, it is rather easy to sit and talk all about rationality and pragmatism. I'm sure that if you go there and explain them the errors in their thinking and in their way of life they will be totally appreciative of that. I'm not african and I'm not even sure if my hypothesis is close to the truth, however, trying to make historical facts disappear because they are not pretty is not how it works. When talking about heritage in regard to the english language, don't forget that it is not their heritage or at least that their heritage is french and arabic as well.
    - lelanthran 5y ago
      > Well, if you are not the one traded like cattle, it is rather easy to sit and talk all about rationality and pragmatism. My ancestors were. Go back far enough in any populations geneaology, and you'll find something similar. > I'm not african and I'm not even sure if my hypothesis is close to the truth, however, trying to make historical facts disappear because they are not pretty is not how it works. Who advocated for that? No, seriously, where did you read that historical facts should be "disappeared"? > When talking about heritage in regard to the english language, don't forget that it is not their heritage or at least that their heritage is french and arabic as well. So? Having a heritage (and everyone's got one) doesn't mean that it's the most important thing to have, or preserve. I advocated that economic prosperity is a higher priority than conservative values. I don't know how anyone can disagree with that.

smabie 5y ago

Of course it would be better off, but you can say that for a lot of places / a lot of languages. I lived in Tanzania for a couple years and learned a bit of swahili and the lack of online resources is a huge barrier for education. If you only know Swahili, the world is very small.

bayesian_horse 5y ago
There is a Swahili course on Duolingo now. I didn't try it yet, but usually the Duolingo courses are the best for the parts they cover.

daemoens 5y ago

Swahili became the largest language over decades . Also this is only for central/east Africa not the entire continent.

qiskit 5y ago

> Wouldn't Africa be better off if English became the most spoken language? No. Superficially it may seem like it but practically it would stagnate their native languages and dumb down the population. > There are more resources, technical and otherwise, available in English than Swahili. Yes there is. But the exercise of translating resources to your own language helps advance a language and a peoples. A few days ago we had a submission about how some of the translators of goethe became some of the best english writers. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30523802 All you have to do is look at the resurgence of europe and european culture as europe "abandoned" latin in favor of the native languages. We wouldn't have shakespeare without the push towards linguistic nationalism - the move to translate bible, etc to one's own native language. > I wonder what the income effect of knowing English is for an Indian, compared to someone who only knows Hindi. I'd guess that it's significant. It depends on whether india supports an english-first system or hindi first system. Besides only a small fraction of jobs within each country requires english. English dependence can be viewed as why india and so much of africa is so poor and undeveloped. You need a healthy amount of national pride to develop your country. Japan, South Korea, China, etc developed through their own languages. Doesn't mean I think everyone should abandon english. Learn what you want, but foster and develop your own languages.

digisign 5y ago
The suggestion wasn't to abandon native languages, it was to prefer English over Swahili as a 'lingua-franca' across regions.
- qiskit 5y ago
  The suggestion was to demote the native language in favor of english since english had the knowledge. My point was to elevate the native language by bringing that knowledge ( english, arabic, russian, chinese, french, etc ) into your native language. > it was to prefer English over Swahili as a 'lingua-franca' across regions. That's what I'm against. And it's a good thing england didn't prefer french ( lingua-franca ) over its native language or we'd all be speaking french. It's a good thing descartes was translated into english rather than everyone speaking french. From a practical standpoint, it just makes sense to prioritize your native language.
  - digisign 5y ago
    It sounds like you're still missing that Swahili is not the native language in most places in Africa.
  - acheron 5y ago
    "lingua franca" does not mean French, if that's what you're implying. It originally referred to a trade language used by Italians.
bluedevil2k 5y ago
> dumb down the population. Got any stats or studies that prove this otherwise ridiculously naive statement?
rory 5y ago
> English dependence can be viewed as why india and so much of africa is so poor and undeveloped. That seems like a ridiculous assertion. How about Ireland?
bluedevil2k 5y ago

ngc248 5y ago

There are 22 official languages in India and there is no national language. In most schools in most cities it is english first (at home anyways you would be speaking your mother tongue) >>> English dependence can be viewed as why india and so much of africa is so poor and undeveloped. You need a healthy amount of national pride to develop your country. Japan, South Korea, China, etc developed through their own languages. No just national pride is not enough to develop. "development" is a complex issue which can't be boiled down to one or two reasons.

alangibson 5y ago
> English dependence can be viewed as why india and so much of africa is so poor and undeveloped. This makes no sense. The USA primarily speaks the language of a country an ocean away that they fought multiple wars against.
- Bayart 5y ago
  The country they directly immigrated from. You argument would make more sense if the 13 colonies were made of native North Americans.
  - oddx 5y ago
    Better example in this context is Singapore.
  - alangibson 5y ago
    > The country they directly immigrated from. Less than 10% of Americans claim English ancestry. There were later waves that dwarfed English immigration.
    - Bayart 5y ago
      First of all I was referring to the American war of independence era. Second, as I understand it English or British ancestry is very under-reported in the US due to it being the default and people focus on more exotic, original origins.

kccqzy 5y ago

A language encodes so much of a people's culture and tradition that giving it up is not a choice to be made lightly. Don't succumb to linguistic imperialism.

LAC-Tech 5y ago

Africa is really huge. 1.4 billion people, Cape Town is about as close to Cairo as New York is to Rio de Janeiro. So I mean maybe, but given the above that's a bit of a challenge.

bnralt 5y ago

If you look at the numbers, it seems like English is the most spoken language in Africa. It's also the official language of the most populous African nation (Nigeria).

Semaphor 5y ago

In South Africa, English is the most spoken language (of their 11 official ones). It’s the one almost everyone understands, brown, black, white. But people still have their own languages. Afrikaans, all the former tribal languages, and probably more I don’t know about. My experience is rather narrow, but besides some very young (pre 1st grade) children who only spoke their tribal language (Request: If anyone is offering online tutoring in Sesotho, I’d love to get contacted), I never encountered anyone who didn’t speak English.

antonvs 5y ago

It seems to me this article is pushing an ideal that doesn't really exist. The article itself admits that "Africa’s Swahili-speaking zone now extends across a full third of the continent." That excludes two-thirds of the continent. For example, in South Africa, there are a whopping eleven official languages, including Xhosa and Zulu (both so-called "Bantu" languages like Swahili), but Swahili is not one of them. The same is true of most other Southern African countries: Angola, Botswana, Lesotho, Mozambique, Namibia, Swaziland, Zambia, Zimbabwe. As another example, Wikipedia has a list of 46 (!) languages spoken in Angola: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Angola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Angola . Swahili is not included. There has been an effort to begin teaching Swahili in schools in both South Africa and Botswana, at least. But such efforts don't have a good track record of success. Take a look at Ireland, where students are taught the Irish language in school but, for the most part, are terrible at it. It seems unlikely that imposing a language on countries that don't natively speak it will succeed.

kzrdude 5y ago
Not Africa but if 46 languages gets an exclam then maybe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people_of_New_Guinea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people_of_New_Gui... is interesting to you :)
jgwil2 5y ago
> so-called "Bantu" languages Are you implying that Bantu languages don't exist?
- bruce511 5y ago
  I can't speak for the original poster, but Bantu as a word has pergoritive associations, which mean it's not commonly used today. In South Africa during apartheid, Bantu was used as a synonym for Black. The "self governing" regions were known as Bantustans and so on. Like with most words, Bantu has a neutral actual meaning, but it's been corrupted by use and would not typically be used by a polite (white) person today - at least in Southern Africa.

gostsamo 5y ago

French is also widely spoken language there. So, choosing a third one might be a compromise or which I suspect more is an attempt at decolonization. After all, if you are trying to establish your independence and proud identity, using the languages of the people who were trading you like cattle might not be the most uplifting idea.

lelanthran 5y ago
Maybe. Cultural center dentity is all well and good but should take a back seat to economic prosperity. Arguments using emotionally loaded terms like "languages of the people who were trading you like cattle " move the focus from prosperity to social justice. After all, when making the reverse argument in favour of English, you wouldn't want to hear "why push for a language best suited to trading cattle"? As much as you may want cultural heritage, it's better for the individual to be fluent in English than in Swahili.
- gostsamo 5y ago
  Well, if you are not the one traded like cattle, it is rather easy to sit and talk all about rationality and pragmatism. I'm sure that if you go there and explain them the errors in their thinking and in their way of life they will be totally appreciative of that. I'm not african and I'm not even sure if my hypothesis is close to the truth, however, trying to make historical facts disappear because they are not pretty is not how it works. When talking about heritage in regard to the english language, don't forget that it is not their heritage or at least that their heritage is french and arabic as well.
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > Well, if you are not the one traded like cattle, it is rather easy to sit and talk all about rationality and pragmatism. My ancestors were. Go back far enough in any populations geneaology, and you'll find something similar. > I'm not african and I'm not even sure if my hypothesis is close to the truth, however, trying to make historical facts disappear because they are not pretty is not how it works. Who advocated for that? No, seriously, where did you read that historical facts should be "disappeared"? > When talking about heritage in regard to the english language, don't forget that it is not their heritage or at least that their heritage is french and arabic as well. So? Having a heritage (and everyone's got one) doesn't mean that it's the most important thing to have, or preserve. I advocated that economic prosperity is a higher priority than conservative values. I don't know how anyone can disagree with that.