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Let's cut off some of the western countries first then as well. US has actively destroyed/destabilized countries in the Middle East and South America to install

Let's cut off some of the western countries first then as well. US has actively destroyed/destabilized countries in the Middle East and South America to install a friendlier government. You've US who voted to invade Iraq based on a lie (along with UK), invaded Libya, bombed Syria, invaded Afghanistan among other things. You've Canada, US and other nations selling arms to Saudi Arabia that continue to bomb the fuck out of Yemen. You've Israel occupying Palestine. Let's cut all the countries off as well. Or are you implying that Russian invasion of Ukraine matter more than all these examples, and if you do so, I wonder why that is? (fyi, it's a rhetorical question, I know why that is)

arcticbull 5y ago
> Let's cut off some of the western countries first then as well. ... first? Why first? Which western country is actively invading anyone right now? Which western country started a land-war in Europe last week? Why would I cut off someone not doing anything for something that happened 20 years ago when there's a land-war in the Ukraine now? > You've US who voted to invade Iraq based on a lie (along with UK). On bad pretenses sure, but to overturn a despot who used chemical weapons against his own people. He wasn't a threat to the US, and the pretenses were wrong - and I didn't support the war at the time. But is it the same thing? Not even close. > Or are you implying that Russian invasion of Ukraine matter more than all these examples, and if you do so, I wonder why that is? (fyi, it's a rhetorical question, I know why that is) Yeah because the Russians launched an un-provoked land war in Europe to re-create the Soviet Union - on the premise of "de-Nazifying" a country run by a Jewish PM. Save your whataboutism for once this is resolved.
- parthdesai 5y ago
  Well, you've Saudi with the support of Western countries and US weapons that is bombing the shit of Yemen. I don't see you calling for sanctions there. Where was the outrage while that is happening? I like how you choose the timeline of right now/last week. US just got out of Afghanistan few months, have destroyed countries and families for generations to come in the past 10-15 years, but you know what let's only count two weeks. > On bad pretenses sure, but to overturn a despot who used chemical weapons against his own people. He wasn't a threat to the US, and the pretenses were wrong - and I didn't support the war at the time. Yeah, looks like US actively knew and helped him gas his own people though because Iran would've been too powerful otherwise, and US can't have that. https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/exclusive-cia-files-prove-america-helped-saddam-as-he-gassed-iran/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/exclusive-cia-files-pro... > But is it the same thing? Not even close. Yeah it isn't, while the world looks to sanction Russia (which they should btw), US blackmailed other countries into invading Iraq and no country got sanctioned. But like you said, US only got pretenses wrong, s who whore cares that millions of lives were lost as a result and a country has been destabilized and destroyed. > Save your whataboutism for once this is resolved. Reddit's favourite term to use when you point out double standards. I don't support this invasion either, it's just the hypocrisy in the outrage that is astonishing. But hey I guess, as the media puts it, world cares more when it's white people with blonde hair and blue eyes that are dying and not brown people you've in middle east, so it's different this time.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Nothing you raised has anything to do with this situation which is what we're talking about. Pointing fingers wildly in every direction isn't going to solve this problem. I'll never say the US has a pristine track record, however what they are doing right now, I'm in support of. Even if they haven't acted appropriately in the past. I can oppose Yemen, I can support Palestine, I can oppose the coup in Guatemala - all while I reject the actions of the Russians in Ukraine. These are not mutually exclusive positions and there is nothing hypocritical about it.
    - mardifoufs 5y ago
      But the US is supporting Saudi Arabia in Yemen right now. It's just as much of an ongoing situation so there isn't even that excuse of "that was before and now is now".
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        And I don't support it. But that has nothing to do with the current situation in Russia or the Ukraine. Focus please, one problem at a time.
        orestarod 5y ago
        Pointing out double standards is not futile or pointless. It exposes the true intentions and interests of those who have them. In this case, for example, the double standards of Western governments and elites show that they do not really care about the suffering of people, rather they act based on their (geopolitical? economical? general?) interests. So, in some occasions they themselves help destroy countries and have no problem with it (Not caring about people's suffering: confirmed), then an opponent creates suffering and they react (is it because of the suffering? No, they proved they do not care.). It is relevant to this, past and future situations, because it helps (those who wish to understand things, at least) shake off pretenses of the various players and see the real motives clearer. Repeat for any other section where double standards exist to get a clearer picture.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
brabel 5y ago
If we had reacted the way the world is reacting now when the USA invaded Iraq under false pretense, perhaps other countries would've taken notice that there's actual consequences for world bullies and this wouldn't be happening now.
wara23arish 5y ago
dont bother as cliche as it sounds, some lives are worth less than others to westerners they either consciously block out all their governments’ actions or are simply unaware of them which i find hard to believe i know this is selfish of me, but when i saw all the support for ukraine, it bothered me inside.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  What makes you think this is about saving lives? This is about the security of Europe / NATO. If Ukraine was on the other side of Russia we wouldn't be having this discussion. Having Russia missile a few steps away frim Germany has caused them to bring back their military. People act in their own self interest. What other lives do you think did not get their due?
  - wara23arish 5y ago
    I am talking about people’s reaction to this. People are painting it as a moral type of good/evil situation. i know and understand that governments are supposed to be acting in their own interests. This does not surprise me one bit. What bothers me ( again I understand this is selfish), is that the same people that preach about democracy/human rights/freedom know their governments are guilty of egregious crimes like Russia’s and arguably worse. I find it hypocritical when they started lecturing and posturing about respecting a country’s independence. I hope this explains my pov better.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      > I am talking about people’s reaction to this. People are painting it as a moral type of good/evil situation. It can absolutely be a moral good/evil situation. As would such a war on the other side of Russia even if folks reacted differently. > I find it hypocritical when they started lecturing and posturing about respecting a country’s independence. They can be right this time, and wrong other times. I do think supporting them when they're right and opposing them when they're wrong is the play.
unethical_ban 5y ago
South America and Saudi/Yemen are the only things approaching the same level of realpolitik assholery as Ukraine now. Iraq? Evil dictator. Libya? Evil dictator. Syria? Gruesome terrorists/evil dictator. Israel/Palestine? Messed up and the world still doesn't like it, but not on the same scale and certainly more complicated.
- wara23arish 5y ago
  please go educate yourself on how those evil dictators were propped up by the USA itself. You’re wildly out of touch if you actually believe if those dictators didn’t do everything with blessings from the US.. yemen is also 100 times worse off than ukraine its not even close
- parthdesai 5y ago
  > Iraq? Evil dictator. Libya? Evil dictator. Look at what Iraq and Libya is right now. Libya has literal slaves right now, I'm sure US feels pretty good about themselves. Heck Obama won a noble peace price for it. US supported Pakistan in 1971 when Pakistan was committing mass genocide in East Pakistan (Bangladesh now). They overthrew a government that people wanted in Iran because that govt. was going to nationalize oil and take it away from western oil companies. These things have been happening forever in the third world, but because it's brown people dying, people didn't care as much. Anyways my enitre point is again, it's dumb to blame an average Russian person for the actions of Putin like how it would be equally dumb to blame american person for the actions of US govt. and military industrial complex.

arcticbull 5y ago

> Let's cut off some of the western countries first then as well. ... first? Why first? Which western country is actively invading anyone right now? Which western country started a land-war in Europe last week? Why would I cut off someone not doing anything for something that happened 20 years ago when there's a land-war in the Ukraine now? > You've US who voted to invade Iraq based on a lie (along with UK). On bad pretenses sure, but to overturn a despot who used chemical weapons against his own people. He wasn't a threat to the US, and the pretenses were wrong - and I didn't support the war at the time. But is it the same thing? Not even close. > Or are you implying that Russian invasion of Ukraine matter more than all these examples, and if you do so, I wonder why that is? (fyi, it's a rhetorical question, I know why that is) Yeah because the Russians launched an un-provoked land war in Europe to re-create the Soviet Union - on the premise of "de-Nazifying" a country run by a Jewish PM. Save your whataboutism for once this is resolved.

parthdesai 5y ago
Well, you've Saudi with the support of Western countries and US weapons that is bombing the shit of Yemen. I don't see you calling for sanctions there. Where was the outrage while that is happening? I like how you choose the timeline of right now/last week. US just got out of Afghanistan few months, have destroyed countries and families for generations to come in the past 10-15 years, but you know what let's only count two weeks. > On bad pretenses sure, but to overturn a despot who used chemical weapons against his own people. He wasn't a threat to the US, and the pretenses were wrong - and I didn't support the war at the time. Yeah, looks like US actively knew and helped him gas his own people though because Iran would've been too powerful otherwise, and US can't have that. https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/exclusive-cia-files-prove-america-helped-saddam-as-he-gassed-iran/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/exclusive-cia-files-pro... > But is it the same thing? Not even close. Yeah it isn't, while the world looks to sanction Russia (which they should btw), US blackmailed other countries into invading Iraq and no country got sanctioned. But like you said, US only got pretenses wrong, s who whore cares that millions of lives were lost as a result and a country has been destabilized and destroyed. > Save your whataboutism for once this is resolved. Reddit's favourite term to use when you point out double standards. I don't support this invasion either, it's just the hypocrisy in the outrage that is astonishing. But hey I guess, as the media puts it, world cares more when it's white people with blonde hair and blue eyes that are dying and not brown people you've in middle east, so it's different this time.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Nothing you raised has anything to do with this situation which is what we're talking about. Pointing fingers wildly in every direction isn't going to solve this problem. I'll never say the US has a pristine track record, however what they are doing right now, I'm in support of. Even if they haven't acted appropriately in the past. I can oppose Yemen, I can support Palestine, I can oppose the coup in Guatemala - all while I reject the actions of the Russians in Ukraine. These are not mutually exclusive positions and there is nothing hypocritical about it.
  - mardifoufs 5y ago
    But the US is supporting Saudi Arabia in Yemen right now. It's just as much of an ongoing situation so there isn't even that excuse of "that was before and now is now".
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      And I don't support it. But that has nothing to do with the current situation in Russia or the Ukraine. Focus please, one problem at a time.
      - orestarod 5y ago
        Pointing out double standards is not futile or pointless. It exposes the true intentions and interests of those who have them. In this case, for example, the double standards of Western governments and elites show that they do not really care about the suffering of people, rather they act based on their (geopolitical? economical? general?) interests. So, in some occasions they themselves help destroy countries and have no problem with it (Not caring about people's suffering: confirmed), then an opponent creates suffering and they react (is it because of the suffering? No, they proved they do not care.). It is relevant to this, past and future situations, because it helps (those who wish to understand things, at least) shake off pretenses of the various players and see the real motives clearer. Repeat for any other section where double standards exist to get a clearer picture.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

brabel 5y ago

If we had reacted the way the world is reacting now when the USA invaded Iraq under false pretense, perhaps other countries would've taken notice that there's actual consequences for world bullies and this wouldn't be happening now.

wara23arish 5y ago

dont bother as cliche as it sounds, some lives are worth less than others to westerners they either consciously block out all their governments’ actions or are simply unaware of them which i find hard to believe i know this is selfish of me, but when i saw all the support for ukraine, it bothered me inside.

ipaddr 5y ago
What makes you think this is about saving lives? This is about the security of Europe / NATO. If Ukraine was on the other side of Russia we wouldn't be having this discussion. Having Russia missile a few steps away frim Germany has caused them to bring back their military. People act in their own self interest. What other lives do you think did not get their due?
- wara23arish 5y ago
  I am talking about people’s reaction to this. People are painting it as a moral type of good/evil situation. i know and understand that governments are supposed to be acting in their own interests. This does not surprise me one bit. What bothers me ( again I understand this is selfish), is that the same people that preach about democracy/human rights/freedom know their governments are guilty of egregious crimes like Russia’s and arguably worse. I find it hypocritical when they started lecturing and posturing about respecting a country’s independence. I hope this explains my pov better.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    > I am talking about people’s reaction to this. People are painting it as a moral type of good/evil situation. It can absolutely be a moral good/evil situation. As would such a war on the other side of Russia even if folks reacted differently. > I find it hypocritical when they started lecturing and posturing about respecting a country’s independence. They can be right this time, and wrong other times. I do think supporting them when they're right and opposing them when they're wrong is the play.

unethical_ban 5y ago

South America and Saudi/Yemen are the only things approaching the same level of realpolitik assholery as Ukraine now. Iraq? Evil dictator. Libya? Evil dictator. Syria? Gruesome terrorists/evil dictator. Israel/Palestine? Messed up and the world still doesn't like it, but not on the same scale and certainly more complicated.

wara23arish 5y ago
please go educate yourself on how those evil dictators were propped up by the USA itself. You’re wildly out of touch if you actually believe if those dictators didn’t do everything with blessings from the US.. yemen is also 100 times worse off than ukraine its not even close
parthdesai 5y ago
> Iraq? Evil dictator. Libya? Evil dictator. Look at what Iraq and Libya is right now. Libya has literal slaves right now, I'm sure US feels pretty good about themselves. Heck Obama won a noble peace price for it. US supported Pakistan in 1971 when Pakistan was committing mass genocide in East Pakistan (Bangladesh now). They overthrew a government that people wanted in Iran because that govt. was going to nationalize oil and take it away from western oil companies. These things have been happening forever in the third world, but because it's brown people dying, people didn't care as much. Anyways my enitre point is again, it's dumb to blame an average Russian person for the actions of Putin like how it would be equally dumb to blame american person for the actions of US govt. and military industrial complex.