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> I don't even know if this is something people would want or pay for if I completed it. And then there's the task of marketing/selling it, which is way outside

by warent 5y ago

> I don't even know if this is something people would want or pay for if I completed it. And then there's the task of marketing/selling it, which is way outside of my skillset. This is why you're spending years and years spinning your wheels getting nowhere. It's a classic mistake pretty much everyone makes. Very fundamental rule number one: Only build something AFTER you sell it FIRST. The only time that rule doesn't apply is if you're doing a hobby project / labor of love and you're okay never making money off it. EDIT: BTW as far as marketing and selling being outside your skillset, it's outside everyone's skillset at some point far enough back in their careers. i.e. nobody is simply born with it. The point is you develop those skills through pain, trial and error. That, or you find a business partner to handle it for you.

verelo 5y ago
Also, solo founder. Consider working on your relationship skills. A cofounder can be a pain in the ass but also the best way to find sucesss.
- lesbianbezos 5y ago
  I'm a solo founder. I dropped out of Stanford, made $180k through past projects, and whenever I worked with co-founders my projects have failed. It's a common narrative that it's harder to be more successful as a solo founder. I don't agree because actually 66% of startups fail because of cofounder conflicts. Also startups with single founders tended to last longer and eventually achieve higher revenue (52% startups with succesful exits is solo founded). So if you are a solo founder, your risk of failing goes down significantly. As for having someone to share your struggles, I joined this solo-ish founders community called https://FoundersCafe.io https://FoundersCafe.io and they are bascially my co-founders without any of the drama. I also hired out all the skillsets I lack. Being a solo founder is fucking awesome as long as you have your needs met (emotional support + skill gaps)
eloff 5y ago
> Very fundamental rule number one: Only build something AFTER you sell it FIRST. I've come to understand this reluctantly over the past couple months of soul searching. I would not try to start coding again (with creating a business in mind) without having first found 5-10 customers.
- faeyanpiraat 5y ago
  Important to point out that the best validation is customers who actually pay real money for the idea in advance. Someone telling OP "interesting, I would buy it" might even be worse than not trying selling it at all, as it might fool OP into working even harder for nothing in the end.
  - jonfw 5y ago
    Validating an idea isn't just getting a yes or no. You need to understand what the person's problem is, how much that problem costs them, what solutions they have tried before, what problems did they have with those solutions, etc. And then you have to size the market. How many other people have that problem? How do you reach those people?
- exdsq 5y ago
  And this is where those Lean Startup books come into play because some of their case studies, even if they're fluffy, show how you can prototype your product with a lot of manual intervention to onboard those 5-10 customers before building anything. I remember reading about an AI Assistant that launched and, to check the market, it was just the founder responding to people lol.
keithwhor 5y ago
You can totally build first. Developers always do. The problem is you have to sell at some point, if it's not customers to begin with then it has to be investors, but invariably you will be selling to customers. Products do not sell or market themselves.
- lolinder 5y ago
  I think OP's point is that if you build something and then try to sell it, what you have might not be something anyone needs. If you sell something and then build it, you've already got customers so you know you've got something.
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    "Sell" is an exaggeration if this is the case. You can achieve the same result just by talking to people to validate the idea. Literally, selling then building is an entirely different thing that sets a hard deadline on what you build.
    - lolinder 5y ago
      > You can achieve the same result just by talking to people to validate the idea. Not quite: saying you'd buy something and actually forking over the cash are two very different things. I've expressed interest in many a project that—when actually made available—I decided I didn't really need after all. Is it always practical to actually sell a not-yet-existing product? No. But do you get the same data from just talking to people? Not at all.
      - deltaonefour 5y ago
        Well depends on how you frame the question right? To validate your idea you have to ask the right questions and penetrate all the bias and politeness. So for example you can ask them this: "Give me your honest answer. Let's say I had the product ready and finished and perfected right now... would you or would you not buy it from me?" You really need to drive at this, you don't need to actually "sell" it. Validating an idea isn't a casual thing, but you don't have to go as far as actually selling it.
rektide 5y ago
I don't agree fully, I feel operating on conviction & purpose & intelligence has a place, is how many of the best things get built. But absolutely some deep questions about who you are building for are essential. There was a good post yesterday[1] ostensibly about open source, & closed source, but the conclusion was really about assessing not just purpose but audience. [1] https://writing.kemitchell.com/2022/02/12/Devs-Use-Closed-Software.html https://writing.kemitchell.com/2022/02/12/Devs-Use-Closed-So... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30536825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30536825 (2 points, 14 hours, 1 comments)
louiskottmann 5y ago
It is statistically significantly harder to have a successful company as a solo founder. Having someone with a stake to bounce ideas and solutions off of makes a big difference. My associate and I regularly thank each other for catastrophes we avoided by our weekly night of talking over beer (and other daily exchanges). I'm not too sure about _absolutely_ selling before making, but definitely do a market research and check if you can find people who would, at least theoretically, buy the product you intend to make. If you make before you sell, you're saying that you are a visionary and people cannot understand your genius. Those are not odds to my liking, but if you like them you do you.
- lesbianbezos 5y ago
  I'm a solo founder. I dropped out of Stanford, made $180k through past projects, and whenever I worked with co-founders my projects have failed. It's a common narrative that it's harder to be more successful as a solo founder. I don't agree because actually 66% of startups fail because of cofounder conflicts. Also startups with single founders tended to last longer and eventually achieve higher revenue (52% startups with succesful exits is solo founded). So if you are a solo founder, your risk of failing goes down significantly. As for having someone to share your struggles, I joined this solo-ish founders community called https://FoundersCafe.io https://FoundersCafe.io and they are bascially my co-founders without any of the drama. I also hired out all the skillsets I lack. Being a solo founder is fucking awesome as long as you have your needs met (emotional support + skill gaps)
  - nowherebeen 5y ago
    As someone on this forum once said, "cofounders either push you forward or drag you down." Most often than not, they drag you down when incentives don't align.
deltaonefour 5y ago
>Very fundamental rule number one: Only build something AFTER you sell it FIRST. This isn't fundamental. It's a single effective strategy out of many possible strategies. Think about it. Only certain people will buy something before you can show it to them and there's also a whole class of people who will only buy after they've seen the product.
- Dig1t 5y ago
  Right, I totally agree with you. The quoted advice sort of flouts the saying "people don't know what they want until you show it to them".
jandrewrogers 5y ago
> Very fundamental rule number one: Only build something AFTER you sell it FIRST. This usually applies to random apps but it does not generalize to every class of software, for a few different reasons. Strategies need to be appropriate for the specific market. You'll always need to sell, but selling first is a poor move for some products.

by warent 5y ago

verelo 5y ago

Also, solo founder. Consider working on your relationship skills. A cofounder can be a pain in the ass but also the best way to find sucesss.

lesbianbezos 5y ago
I'm a solo founder. I dropped out of Stanford, made $180k through past projects, and whenever I worked with co-founders my projects have failed. It's a common narrative that it's harder to be more successful as a solo founder. I don't agree because actually 66% of startups fail because of cofounder conflicts. Also startups with single founders tended to last longer and eventually achieve higher revenue (52% startups with succesful exits is solo founded). So if you are a solo founder, your risk of failing goes down significantly. As for having someone to share your struggles, I joined this solo-ish founders community called https://FoundersCafe.io https://FoundersCafe.io and they are bascially my co-founders without any of the drama. I also hired out all the skillsets I lack. Being a solo founder is fucking awesome as long as you have your needs met (emotional support + skill gaps)

eloff 5y ago

> Very fundamental rule number one: Only build something AFTER you sell it FIRST. I've come to understand this reluctantly over the past couple months of soul searching. I would not try to start coding again (with creating a business in mind) without having first found 5-10 customers.

faeyanpiraat 5y ago
Important to point out that the best validation is customers who actually pay real money for the idea in advance. Someone telling OP "interesting, I would buy it" might even be worse than not trying selling it at all, as it might fool OP into working even harder for nothing in the end.
- jonfw 5y ago
  Validating an idea isn't just getting a yes or no. You need to understand what the person's problem is, how much that problem costs them, what solutions they have tried before, what problems did they have with those solutions, etc. And then you have to size the market. How many other people have that problem? How do you reach those people?
exdsq 5y ago
And this is where those Lean Startup books come into play because some of their case studies, even if they're fluffy, show how you can prototype your product with a lot of manual intervention to onboard those 5-10 customers before building anything. I remember reading about an AI Assistant that launched and, to check the market, it was just the founder responding to people lol.

keithwhor 5y ago

You can totally build first. Developers always do. The problem is you have to sell at some point, if it's not customers to begin with then it has to be investors, but invariably you will be selling to customers. Products do not sell or market themselves.

lolinder 5y ago
I think OP's point is that if you build something and then try to sell it, what you have might not be something anyone needs. If you sell something and then build it, you've already got customers so you know you've got something.
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  "Sell" is an exaggeration if this is the case. You can achieve the same result just by talking to people to validate the idea. Literally, selling then building is an entirely different thing that sets a hard deadline on what you build.
  - lolinder 5y ago
    > You can achieve the same result just by talking to people to validate the idea. Not quite: saying you'd buy something and actually forking over the cash are two very different things. I've expressed interest in many a project that—when actually made available—I decided I didn't really need after all. Is it always practical to actually sell a not-yet-existing product? No. But do you get the same data from just talking to people? Not at all.
    - deltaonefour 5y ago
      Well depends on how you frame the question right? To validate your idea you have to ask the right questions and penetrate all the bias and politeness. So for example you can ask them this: "Give me your honest answer. Let's say I had the product ready and finished and perfected right now... would you or would you not buy it from me?" You really need to drive at this, you don't need to actually "sell" it. Validating an idea isn't a casual thing, but you don't have to go as far as actually selling it.

rektide 5y ago

I don't agree fully, I feel operating on conviction & purpose & intelligence has a place, is how many of the best things get built. But absolutely some deep questions about who you are building for are essential. There was a good post yesterday[1] ostensibly about open source, & closed source, but the conclusion was really about assessing not just purpose but audience. [1] https://writing.kemitchell.com/2022/02/12/Devs-Use-Closed-Software.html https://writing.kemitchell.com/2022/02/12/Devs-Use-Closed-So... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30536825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30536825 (2 points, 14 hours, 1 comments)

louiskottmann 5y ago

It is statistically significantly harder to have a successful company as a solo founder. Having someone with a stake to bounce ideas and solutions off of makes a big difference. My associate and I regularly thank each other for catastrophes we avoided by our weekly night of talking over beer (and other daily exchanges). I'm not too sure about _absolutely_ selling before making, but definitely do a market research and check if you can find people who would, at least theoretically, buy the product you intend to make. If you make before you sell, you're saying that you are a visionary and people cannot understand your genius. Those are not odds to my liking, but if you like them you do you.

lesbianbezos 5y ago
I'm a solo founder. I dropped out of Stanford, made $180k through past projects, and whenever I worked with co-founders my projects have failed. It's a common narrative that it's harder to be more successful as a solo founder. I don't agree because actually 66% of startups fail because of cofounder conflicts. Also startups with single founders tended to last longer and eventually achieve higher revenue (52% startups with succesful exits is solo founded). So if you are a solo founder, your risk of failing goes down significantly. As for having someone to share your struggles, I joined this solo-ish founders community called https://FoundersCafe.io https://FoundersCafe.io and they are bascially my co-founders without any of the drama. I also hired out all the skillsets I lack. Being a solo founder is fucking awesome as long as you have your needs met (emotional support + skill gaps)
- nowherebeen 5y ago
  As someone on this forum once said, "cofounders either push you forward or drag you down." Most often than not, they drag you down when incentives don't align.

deltaonefour 5y ago

>Very fundamental rule number one: Only build something AFTER you sell it FIRST. This isn't fundamental. It's a single effective strategy out of many possible strategies. Think about it. Only certain people will buy something before you can show it to them and there's also a whole class of people who will only buy after they've seen the product.

Dig1t 5y ago
Right, I totally agree with you. The quoted advice sort of flouts the saying "people don't know what they want until you show it to them".

jandrewrogers 5y ago

> Very fundamental rule number one: Only build something AFTER you sell it FIRST. This usually applies to random apps but it does not generalize to every class of software, for a few different reasons. Strategies need to be appropriate for the specific market. You'll always need to sell, but selling first is a poor move for some products.