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> I think that is shaping up right now. I hope so. I share your concern about Trumpism and Kremlin-sympathizing in the United States, but it's a mistake to th

> I think that is shaping up right now. I hope so. I share your concern about Trumpism and Kremlin-sympathizing in the United States, but it's a mistake to think that authoritarianism is exclusively a right-wing phenomenon considering the last decade saw unprecedented attacks on free speech, racial egalitarianism (i.e., what the left pejoratively refers to as "colorblindness"), and unjustifiable overreach with respect to COVID protocols (and prior to 2021-01-06, left-wing groups had a monopoly over anti-democratic, revolutionary rhetoric). Moreover, populism on the left and especially on the right is a symptom and not a cause in and of itself, and we should tread lightly so as to not exacerbate the root cause and inadvertently create more populists (e.g., by trying to "crack down" on populism). Personally, I think we need to re-establish our "civic religion" with respect to western democratic values and anti-authoritarianism and to emphasize an American identity rather than racial or partisan identities. For those of us on the left, this probably implies a course correction from hyperbolic criticisms of the US and the West toward a narrative which acknowledges that for all its faults, we could do a lot worse than western democracy and egalitarianism. For both sides, we need to stop looking at "the other side" as the cause of all our woes and start building bridges or western superpowers will become too weak to keep authoritarian superpowers in check.

ModernMech 5y ago
> but it's a mistake to think that authoritarianism is exclusively a right-wing phenomenon I think we have to draw a distinction between authoritarianism and illiberalism. The American left is highly illiberal, which is one thing. But I don't think they are authoritarian yet because they don't have their own Trump -- authoritarianism revolves around the authoritarian. Joe Biden isn't a Trump and neither is Bernie Sanders for that matter. Even AOC. They have a more pluralistic message even if it is illiberal. The message of the authoritarian is "I alone can fix it". I think Trump unironically said literally those exact words. I mean, he sang all the authoritarian tunes including such hits as "the media is the enemy of the people" and "what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening", quotes that could have come straight from Stalin and 1984. It's not subtle. For this reason, I don't see the left as an authoritarian threat right now. The right has metastasized and has all the elements necessary to go the rest of the way. > Personally, I think we need to re-establish our "civic religion" with respect to western democratic values and anti-authoritarianism and to emphasize an American identity rather than racial or partisan identities. Yes, I'm with you there.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > I think we have to draw a distinction between authoritarianism and illiberalism. Fair enough. I'm less sure about the specific technical distinctions, and I'm more concerned about the magnitude of the illiberalism rather than the particular way it is organized. I.e., I'm not convinced that one illiberal president is worse than the institutional illiberalism in the media, the academy, entertainment, public education, etc. So long as we can maintain liberal, democratic norms, the checks on the President's power remain robust; however, the left and the right both frequently work to degrade those norms. However, I am pretty sure that (while it wasn't always this way) right-wing illiberalism is largely a response to left-wing illiberalism for the last decade or so. The left sets the precedent and the right responds in kind, often with years of delay (although I think the lag time is decreasing quickly). I'm thinking of things like: * January 6th couldn't have happened if politicians, the media, celebrities, etc hadn't breathlessly defended, justified, and/or fanned BLM riots for the better part of a decade. * The ranks of far-right groups didn't swell until woke race ideologies were preached for years in the media, classrooms, DEI departments, etc * "cancel culture"[^1] was a left-wing innovation before the right eventually (and half-heartedly) adopted it Note that this isn't to ascribe guilt to the left, but rather to observe how the system works because it hints at some solutions. Off the top of my head: 1. Work to restore the aspirational neutrality and objectivity of epistemological institutions 2. Hold the left accountable to liberal standards, just like we hold the right accountable 3. Denounce narratives which seek to deprecate our American identity in favor of racial, sexual, religious, or political identities. [^1]: Cancel culture: campaigns to petition someone's employer to terminate the employment relationship (and thus access to income, healthcare, etc) for speech which the in-group finds objectionable, but which is otherwise well-within the Overton Window. Especially with respect to ordinary people (as opposed to celebrities and others who are mostly symbolic targets).
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > However, I am pretty sure that (while it wasn't always this way) right-wing illiberalism is largely a response to left-wing illiberalism for the last decade or so. The left sets the precedent and the right responds in kind, often with years of delay Yea these this ping pong back and forth. The recent surge of the left was a response to years of drug wars and don’t ask don’t tell. We got our win with gay marriage and just kept going, so we need to go back now a little. And we will and we will go too far back only to turn around yet again. The difference between institutional authoritarianism is at least we know institutional authoritarianism, and at least that is more stable and rational. Like, you might not agree with people who want to restrict your speech, but under institutional authoritarianism they at least try to justify it. And if you don’t like it you can work in the system to change it. Like, change does happen. Jim Crow did end for example, without some dictator having to keel over and die. Apartheid die end in South Africa lawfully and by choice of the government. When authoritarianism is organized under a single man, everything becomes about assuaging his ego. It’s a fundamentally unstable proposition because the ego of a narcissist is never assuaged. The enemies list always grows longer and the list of grievances is unending and always the number one priority - even at the expense of national security. You want to know how Jan 6th could have been prevented? If one man hadn’t instructed his followers to be there and to stop the activities going on at the Capitol. That’s the danger of an ego right there. He did that for selfish reasons, and it hurt us all. Seriously stop blaming BLM for what happened that day. It was planned far in advance by people who want what Putin has in Russia to come here to America. BLM has nothing to do with that. Think long and hard about this, because he told us he wants (President for life) and he told us Putin is a genius for what he’s doing in Ukraine. Think about that. Do you want that man near power again? He wants it. What BLM did over the summer was awful but you can’t use that as an excuse anymore after what the 1/6 committee has uncovered so far.

ModernMech 5y ago

> but it's a mistake to think that authoritarianism is exclusively a right-wing phenomenon I think we have to draw a distinction between authoritarianism and illiberalism. The American left is highly illiberal, which is one thing. But I don't think they are authoritarian yet because they don't have their own Trump -- authoritarianism revolves around the authoritarian. Joe Biden isn't a Trump and neither is Bernie Sanders for that matter. Even AOC. They have a more pluralistic message even if it is illiberal. The message of the authoritarian is "I alone can fix it". I think Trump unironically said literally those exact words. I mean, he sang all the authoritarian tunes including such hits as "the media is the enemy of the people" and "what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening", quotes that could have come straight from Stalin and 1984. It's not subtle. For this reason, I don't see the left as an authoritarian threat right now. The right has metastasized and has all the elements necessary to go the rest of the way. > Personally, I think we need to re-establish our "civic religion" with respect to western democratic values and anti-authoritarianism and to emphasize an American identity rather than racial or partisan identities. Yes, I'm with you there.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> I think we have to draw a distinction between authoritarianism and illiberalism. Fair enough. I'm less sure about the specific technical distinctions, and I'm more concerned about the magnitude of the illiberalism rather than the particular way it is organized. I.e., I'm not convinced that one illiberal president is worse than the institutional illiberalism in the media, the academy, entertainment, public education, etc. So long as we can maintain liberal, democratic norms, the checks on the President's power remain robust; however, the left and the right both frequently work to degrade those norms. However, I am pretty sure that (while it wasn't always this way) right-wing illiberalism is largely a response to left-wing illiberalism for the last decade or so. The left sets the precedent and the right responds in kind, often with years of delay (although I think the lag time is decreasing quickly). I'm thinking of things like: * January 6th couldn't have happened if politicians, the media, celebrities, etc hadn't breathlessly defended, justified, and/or fanned BLM riots for the better part of a decade. * The ranks of far-right groups didn't swell until woke race ideologies were preached for years in the media, classrooms, DEI departments, etc * "cancel culture"[^1] was a left-wing innovation before the right eventually (and half-heartedly) adopted it Note that this isn't to ascribe guilt to the left, but rather to observe how the system works because it hints at some solutions. Off the top of my head: 1. Work to restore the aspirational neutrality and objectivity of epistemological institutions 2. Hold the left accountable to liberal standards, just like we hold the right accountable 3. Denounce narratives which seek to deprecate our American identity in favor of racial, sexual, religious, or political identities. [^1]: Cancel culture: campaigns to petition someone's employer to terminate the employment relationship (and thus access to income, healthcare, etc) for speech which the in-group finds objectionable, but which is otherwise well-within the Overton Window. Especially with respect to ordinary people (as opposed to celebrities and others who are mostly symbolic targets).
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > However, I am pretty sure that (while it wasn't always this way) right-wing illiberalism is largely a response to left-wing illiberalism for the last decade or so. The left sets the precedent and the right responds in kind, often with years of delay Yea these this ping pong back and forth. The recent surge of the left was a response to years of drug wars and don’t ask don’t tell. We got our win with gay marriage and just kept going, so we need to go back now a little. And we will and we will go too far back only to turn around yet again. The difference between institutional authoritarianism is at least we know institutional authoritarianism, and at least that is more stable and rational. Like, you might not agree with people who want to restrict your speech, but under institutional authoritarianism they at least try to justify it. And if you don’t like it you can work in the system to change it. Like, change does happen. Jim Crow did end for example, without some dictator having to keel over and die. Apartheid die end in South Africa lawfully and by choice of the government. When authoritarianism is organized under a single man, everything becomes about assuaging his ego. It’s a fundamentally unstable proposition because the ego of a narcissist is never assuaged. The enemies list always grows longer and the list of grievances is unending and always the number one priority - even at the expense of national security. You want to know how Jan 6th could have been prevented? If one man hadn’t instructed his followers to be there and to stop the activities going on at the Capitol. That’s the danger of an ego right there. He did that for selfish reasons, and it hurt us all. Seriously stop blaming BLM for what happened that day. It was planned far in advance by people who want what Putin has in Russia to come here to America. BLM has nothing to do with that. Think long and hard about this, because he told us he wants (President for life) and he told us Putin is a genius for what he’s doing in Ukraine. Think about that. Do you want that man near power again? He wants it. What BLM did over the summer was awful but you can’t use that as an excuse anymore after what the 1/6 committee has uncovered so far.