7 ms·

Decades ago I was warning people about surveillance state, and it's too late now to stop it. I perceive these programs only exist now _because_ protests that h

Decades ago I was warning people about surveillance state, and it's too late now to stop it. I perceive these programs only exist now _because_ protests that have turned into destructive mobs and previously leaders on the fence (in private) now are being persuaded to take the only action they can, secret programs. Social justice movements are their own worst enemy. We all want change, but when a leaderless group of people make too many people nervous about the randomness of the results they achieve, you get these kinds of results from the government.

AlexandrB 5y ago
And when a group with a leader and a concrete goal achieves results you get COINTELPRO[1]. There's a reason modern protest movements are "leaderless". It's in part to avoid the kind of disruption operations hierarchical groups are vulnerable to. There's no objectively "winning" hand here. Governments are always going to try to surveil and subvert protests and protestors. Peaceful or otherwise. Thinking that this is a new phenomenon seems ahistorical. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
danuker 5y ago
It is not too late to stop anything. With enough political will, anything is possible. Albeit very slowly and painfully.
- serverlessmom 5y ago
  Totally agree “There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen” – Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
pjc50 5y ago
> you get these kinds of results from the government This is basically because the government involved were willing to anything other than actually prosecute Derek Chauvin. As soon as it got to actual court there was no need for further protests on behalf of George Floyd. It is shameful that it took that much street protest to get the government to do something that it should have done anyway.
krapp 5y ago
>Social justice movements are their own worst enemy. We all want change, but when a leaderless group of people make too many people nervous about the randomness of the results they achieve, you get these kinds of results from the government. If it weren't for Black protesters and BLM "making people nervous" and forcing them to actually pay attention, George Floyd's killers would probably have commendations now, and the racist narratives that defended his murder would be accepted as status quo truth. Progressive change never happens when the powers who govern the status quo are allowed to remain comfortable.
- akimball 5y ago
  Pyrrhic victory is Pyrrhic. Gaining accountability in one case while the apparatus of brutality and repression grows - that is not a good outcome.
  - krapp 5y ago
    The apparatus of brutality and repression grows regardless. That it grows even faster when opposed is no reason not to oppose it.

AlexandrB 5y ago

And when a group with a leader and a concrete goal achieves results you get COINTELPRO[1]. There's a reason modern protest movements are "leaderless". It's in part to avoid the kind of disruption operations hierarchical groups are vulnerable to. There's no objectively "winning" hand here. Governments are always going to try to surveil and subvert protests and protestors. Peaceful or otherwise. Thinking that this is a new phenomenon seems ahistorical. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

danuker 5y ago

It is not too late to stop anything. With enough political will, anything is possible. Albeit very slowly and painfully.

serverlessmom 5y ago
Totally agree “There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen” – Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

pjc50 5y ago

> you get these kinds of results from the government This is basically because the government involved were willing to anything other than actually prosecute Derek Chauvin. As soon as it got to actual court there was no need for further protests on behalf of George Floyd. It is shameful that it took that much street protest to get the government to do something that it should have done anyway.

krapp 5y ago

>Social justice movements are their own worst enemy. We all want change, but when a leaderless group of people make too many people nervous about the randomness of the results they achieve, you get these kinds of results from the government. If it weren't for Black protesters and BLM "making people nervous" and forcing them to actually pay attention, George Floyd's killers would probably have commendations now, and the racist narratives that defended his murder would be accepted as status quo truth. Progressive change never happens when the powers who govern the status quo are allowed to remain comfortable.

akimball 5y ago
Pyrrhic victory is Pyrrhic. Gaining accountability in one case while the apparatus of brutality and repression grows - that is not a good outcome.
- krapp 5y ago
  The apparatus of brutality and repression grows regardless. That it grows even faster when opposed is no reason not to oppose it.