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This comment assumes that western peoples are safe some any kind of propaganda. Well from my humble opinion i think otherwise.

ithkuil 5y ago
I keep hearting this false equivalence. Sure the west is full of propaganda, but what's going on in russia is another level. I heard from people on the ground in ukraine that the this is a full on aggression and I heard from other people in russia that the common people literally believe that this is just a special operation that meant to overthrow the corrupted government etc etc. How, in the past similar propaganda happened in the west, when the average american thought civilians in afganistan or iraq weren't really hurt when the US "surgically" tried to punish the "bad guys". I get it; and in the same vein I wouldn't think that the solution for that propaganda was to cut off the american population from actually getting information from abroad.
- neltnerb 5y ago
  I'd say that the key difference is that in, say, the US -- yes, there's tons of very stupid stuff said by media uncritically, and there's stuff the government says. But it's also easy to find opposition points of view. Case in point, mask mandates and convoys. Propaganda still works, same as marketing and advertisements, but it really does not seem equivalent when it's so easy to access information critical of what your government is doing. Unlike when all media critical of the government gets banned. No one tried to arrest me for protesting the Iraq war, or Guantanamo, or Afghanistan, or... But the "mainstream" media definitely has huge blind spots, implicit racism, and other nasty features from either habit or laziness.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    I agree and it really bothers me how otherwise well intentioned people in my neighborhood in the European country where I live fall in the trap of saying that the west (and the US in particular) is "just so bad" etc. They are pro Russia trolls or whatnot, it's genuine widespread confusion. And I have to say that I do blame america for creating so many precedents of hypocrisy that they fueled this cynicism to an extent that spills over the usual group of local conspiratorial nutjobs. That said, I'd take this hypocrisy every day instead of people being actually killed. I mean it's not a videogame for cry ing out loud, these are people's lives. War is a fucking hell.
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  90% of Americans were pro-war against Iraq, and most Americans actually believed that it was a righteous war while most Iraqis saw it as a war of aggression. Like how is that different from your own example that russians believe that this is a special operation to denazify ukraine? I think you just don't remember or know about the general opinion back in 2003 so you think this sort of complete disconnect is unique to Russia. Yes the opinion later changed and anti war sentiment became mainstream but that wasn't in 2003 or even 2004. We aren't talking about just ignorance about civilian casualties in the Middle East but an almost complete belief that the invasion of Iraq was righteous and that they were actually freeing the country. You can't just downplay how pervasive that belief to claim that it is a false equivalency. I get that Americans had a diverse media and that it wasn't state controlled, but does that matter when you get a 80-90% public support for such a disgusting act of aggression?

ithkuil 5y ago

I keep hearting this false equivalence. Sure the west is full of propaganda, but what's going on in russia is another level. I heard from people on the ground in ukraine that the this is a full on aggression and I heard from other people in russia that the common people literally believe that this is just a special operation that meant to overthrow the corrupted government etc etc. How, in the past similar propaganda happened in the west, when the average american thought civilians in afganistan or iraq weren't really hurt when the US "surgically" tried to punish the "bad guys". I get it; and in the same vein I wouldn't think that the solution for that propaganda was to cut off the american population from actually getting information from abroad.

neltnerb 5y ago
I'd say that the key difference is that in, say, the US -- yes, there's tons of very stupid stuff said by media uncritically, and there's stuff the government says. But it's also easy to find opposition points of view. Case in point, mask mandates and convoys. Propaganda still works, same as marketing and advertisements, but it really does not seem equivalent when it's so easy to access information critical of what your government is doing. Unlike when all media critical of the government gets banned. No one tried to arrest me for protesting the Iraq war, or Guantanamo, or Afghanistan, or... But the "mainstream" media definitely has huge blind spots, implicit racism, and other nasty features from either habit or laziness.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  I agree and it really bothers me how otherwise well intentioned people in my neighborhood in the European country where I live fall in the trap of saying that the west (and the US in particular) is "just so bad" etc. They are pro Russia trolls or whatnot, it's genuine widespread confusion. And I have to say that I do blame america for creating so many precedents of hypocrisy that they fueled this cynicism to an extent that spills over the usual group of local conspiratorial nutjobs. That said, I'd take this hypocrisy every day instead of people being actually killed. I mean it's not a videogame for cry ing out loud, these are people's lives. War is a fucking hell.
mardifoufs 5y ago
90% of Americans were pro-war against Iraq, and most Americans actually believed that it was a righteous war while most Iraqis saw it as a war of aggression. Like how is that different from your own example that russians believe that this is a special operation to denazify ukraine? I think you just don't remember or know about the general opinion back in 2003 so you think this sort of complete disconnect is unique to Russia. Yes the opinion later changed and anti war sentiment became mainstream but that wasn't in 2003 or even 2004. We aren't talking about just ignorance about civilian casualties in the Middle East but an almost complete belief that the invasion of Iraq was righteous and that they were actually freeing the country. You can't just downplay how pervasive that belief to claim that it is a false equivalency. I get that Americans had a diverse media and that it wasn't state controlled, but does that matter when you get a 80-90% public support for such a disgusting act of aggression?