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WRT #1 - Repeatedly not taking action out of fear of Russian retaliation is precisely what has gotten us to this point. Putin will step over the line until the

WRT #1 - Repeatedly not taking action out of fear of Russian retaliation is precisely what has gotten us to this point. Putin will step over the line until the west pushes back.

_-david-_ 5y ago
Taking actions is what got us here. Many of the times when the West tries to push institutions east Russia retaliates. Look at the Georgia war and Crimea for example.
- witrak 5y ago
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    I am very much against Putin and think his attacks are wrong. I documented what I meant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30543599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30543599
- gran_colombia 5y ago
  Russia does not invade in reaction to NATO expansion. NATO expands in reaction to Russian invasions. Notice how NATO does not expand militarily. Not once. Notice how Russia expands militarily, every time.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    In 2020 NATO said themselves: "Allied leaders also agreed at Bucharest that Georgia and Ukraine, which were already engaged in Intensified Dialogues with NATO, will one day become members. In December 2008, Allied foreign ministers decided to enhance opportunities for assisting the two countries in efforts to meet membership requirements by making use of the framework of the existing NATO-Ukraine Commission and NATO-Georgia Commission – without prejudice to further decisions which may be taken about their applications to join the MAP." https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      2020 was after the invasions of both Georgia (2008) and Ukraine (2014).
      - waffleiron 5y ago
        Note the December 2008 in the quote, i.e. before Ukraine and after Georgia.
        _-david-_ 5y ago
        Georgia was in August 2008. You have the wrong quote. This quote is from from April 2008 >NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
  - cabalamat 5y ago
    Following the setup of NATO, 18 further countries joined it. Most (11) of them joined when Putin was in charge of Russia. Putin is NATO's best recruiting sergeant. Russia is the only country in the world with a massive formal alliance of major world powers reigned against it. This is because of continued Russian aggression and atrocities going back a long time.
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    Not true. April 2008 [1] >NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. After the meeting Putin said NATO expansion was a direct threat to Russia. The Russo-Georgia War was August 2008. So Georgia being attacked was clearly after attempted NATO expansion east. In November 2013 the president of Ukraine, Yanukovych, decided to not agree to an EU deal. There were protests in Ukraine which would end in a coup. Some of the European countries try to work out a deal for an election but the protesters aren't going for it. Yanukovych then flees the country. The new government is very pro West / EU. What then happens in Ukraine starts making anti-Russian moves like removing minority (Russian) language laws. Russia then attacks Crimea in February 2014. Again, Russia only attacked after Ukraine was attempting to work out a deal with the EU and after they showed they would use force (the coup) to get it. Don't get me wrong. I am against Russia attacking both Georgia and Ukraine, but it seems quite clear that Russia only attacks after they start getting too cozy with the West. [1] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
brabel 5y ago
There's an argument to be made both ways. I've been quite shocked when I moved to Europe and noticed that very strong Anti-Russia stance that's openly spoused here... if I were Russian, I would be genuinely worried about them having facilities to hold nuclear weapons, which is what happens when you join NATO [1]. NATO already borders Russia directly in the Baltic states, nearly touches it with Poland (the historic gateway of Western armies into Russia), and if Ukraine joined NATO, the Russian heartland would become vulnerable not only to nukes but to large-scale ground invasion, as the border with Ukraine is very long and completely devoid of geographical obstacles... so even though I despise Putin for starting this war (I despise anyone who starts a war... war is a remnant of our primitive, violent past where force was accepted as a viable solution to problems), I definitely don't hold the West as being blame-free in this story. Everyone involved knew there was no bigger provocation to Russian than installing nukes on its closer, until very recently friendly, neighbours. John Pilger has been warning us that NATO/USA expansion even into the Chinese sphere [2] is making the world incredibly more dangerous, not less. “American bases form a giant noose encircling China with missiles, bombers, warships – all the way from Australia through the Pacific to Asia and beyond,” Pilger says. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/6/john-pilger-qa-us-missiles-are-pointed-at-china https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/6/john-pilger-qa-...

WRT #1 - Repeatedly not taking action out of fear of Russian retaliation is precisely what has gotten us to this point. Putin will step over the line until the west pushes back.

_-david-_ 5y ago

Taking actions is what got us here. Many of the times when the West tries to push institutions east Russia retaliates. Look at the Georgia war and Crimea for example.

witrak 5y ago
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  I am very much against Putin and think his attacks are wrong. I documented what I meant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30543599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30543599
gran_colombia 5y ago
Russia does not invade in reaction to NATO expansion. NATO expands in reaction to Russian invasions. Notice how NATO does not expand militarily. Not once. Notice how Russia expands militarily, every time.
- waffleiron 5y ago
  In 2020 NATO said themselves: "Allied leaders also agreed at Bucharest that Georgia and Ukraine, which were already engaged in Intensified Dialogues with NATO, will one day become members. In December 2008, Allied foreign ministers decided to enhance opportunities for assisting the two countries in efforts to meet membership requirements by making use of the framework of the existing NATO-Ukraine Commission and NATO-Georgia Commission – without prejudice to further decisions which may be taken about their applications to join the MAP." https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    2020 was after the invasions of both Georgia (2008) and Ukraine (2014).
    - waffleiron 5y ago
      Note the December 2008 in the quote, i.e. before Ukraine and after Georgia.
      - _-david-_ 5y ago
        Georgia was in August 2008. You have the wrong quote. This quote is from from April 2008 >NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
- cabalamat 5y ago
  Following the setup of NATO, 18 further countries joined it. Most (11) of them joined when Putin was in charge of Russia. Putin is NATO's best recruiting sergeant. Russia is the only country in the world with a massive formal alliance of major world powers reigned against it. This is because of continued Russian aggression and atrocities going back a long time.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  Not true. April 2008 [1] >NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. After the meeting Putin said NATO expansion was a direct threat to Russia. The Russo-Georgia War was August 2008. So Georgia being attacked was clearly after attempted NATO expansion east. In November 2013 the president of Ukraine, Yanukovych, decided to not agree to an EU deal. There were protests in Ukraine which would end in a coup. Some of the European countries try to work out a deal for an election but the protesters aren't going for it. Yanukovych then flees the country. The new government is very pro West / EU. What then happens in Ukraine starts making anti-Russian moves like removing minority (Russian) language laws. Russia then attacks Crimea in February 2014. Again, Russia only attacked after Ukraine was attempting to work out a deal with the EU and after they showed they would use force (the coup) to get it. Don't get me wrong. I am against Russia attacking both Georgia and Ukraine, but it seems quite clear that Russia only attacks after they start getting too cozy with the West. [1] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

brabel 5y ago

There's an argument to be made both ways. I've been quite shocked when I moved to Europe and noticed that very strong Anti-Russia stance that's openly spoused here... if I were Russian, I would be genuinely worried about them having facilities to hold nuclear weapons, which is what happens when you join NATO [1]. NATO already borders Russia directly in the Baltic states, nearly touches it with Poland (the historic gateway of Western armies into Russia), and if Ukraine joined NATO, the Russian heartland would become vulnerable not only to nukes but to large-scale ground invasion, as the border with Ukraine is very long and completely devoid of geographical obstacles... so even though I despise Putin for starting this war (I despise anyone who starts a war... war is a remnant of our primitive, violent past where force was accepted as a viable solution to problems), I definitely don't hold the West as being blame-free in this story. Everyone involved knew there was no bigger provocation to Russian than installing nukes on its closer, until very recently friendly, neighbours. John Pilger has been warning us that NATO/USA expansion even into the Chinese sphere [2] is making the world incredibly more dangerous, not less. “American bases form a giant noose encircling China with missiles, bombers, warships – all the way from Australia through the Pacific to Asia and beyond,” Pilger says. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/6/john-pilger-qa-us-missiles-are-pointed-at-china https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/6/john-pilger-qa-...