4 ms·

1. it could fuel retaliation by the russian government, perhaps lying that the cut done by the west is not asymmetric and it's actually the reason internet does

1. it could fuel retaliation by the russian government, perhaps lying that the cut done by the west is not asymmetric and it's actually the reason internet doesn't work for russians 2. isn't it useful that people on the west at least know what kind of propaganda people in russia consume?

RhodesianHunter 5y ago
WRT #1 - Repeatedly not taking action out of fear of Russian retaliation is precisely what has gotten us to this point. Putin will step over the line until the west pushes back.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  Taking actions is what got us here. Many of the times when the West tries to push institutions east Russia retaliates. Look at the Georgia war and Crimea for example.
  - witrak 5y ago
    - _-david-_ 5y ago
      I am very much against Putin and think his attacks are wrong. I documented what I meant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30543599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30543599
  - gran_colombia 5y ago
    Russia does not invade in reaction to NATO expansion. NATO expands in reaction to Russian invasions. Notice how NATO does not expand militarily. Not once. Notice how Russia expands militarily, every time.
    - waffleiron 5y ago
      In 2020 NATO said themselves: "Allied leaders also agreed at Bucharest that Georgia and Ukraine, which were already engaged in Intensified Dialogues with NATO, will one day become members. In December 2008, Allied foreign ministers decided to enhance opportunities for assisting the two countries in efforts to meet membership requirements by making use of the framework of the existing NATO-Ukraine Commission and NATO-Georgia Commission – without prejudice to further decisions which may be taken about their applications to join the MAP." https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        2020 was after the invasions of both Georgia (2008) and Ukraine (2014).
        waffleiron 5y ago
        Note the December 2008 in the quote, i.e. before Ukraine and after Georgia.
        _-david-_ 5y ago
        Georgia was in August 2008. You have the wrong quote. This quote is from from April 2008 >NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
    - cabalamat 5y ago
      Following the setup of NATO, 18 further countries joined it. Most (11) of them joined when Putin was in charge of Russia. Putin is NATO's best recruiting sergeant. Russia is the only country in the world with a massive formal alliance of major world powers reigned against it. This is because of continued Russian aggression and atrocities going back a long time.
- brabel 5y ago
  There's an argument to be made both ways. I've been quite shocked when I moved to Europe and noticed that very strong Anti-Russia stance that's openly spoused here... if I were Russian, I would be genuinely worried about them having facilities to hold nuclear weapons, which is what happens when you join NATO [1]. NATO already borders Russia directly in the Baltic states, nearly touches it with Poland (the historic gateway of Western armies into Russia), and if Ukraine joined NATO, the Russian heartland would become vulnerable not only to nukes but to large-scale ground invasion, as the border with Ukraine is very long and completely devoid of geographical obstacles... so even though I despise Putin for starting this war (I despise anyone who starts a war... war is a remnant of our primitive, violent past where force was accepted as a viable solution to problems), I definitely don't hold the West as being blame-free in this story. Everyone involved knew there was no bigger provocation to Russian than installing nukes on its closer, until very recently friendly, neighbours. John Pilger has been warning us that NATO/USA expansion even into the Chinese sphere [2] is making the world incredibly more dangerous, not less. “American bases form a giant noose encircling China with missiles, bombers, warships – all the way from Australia through the Pacific to Asia and beyond,” Pilger says. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/6/john-pilger-qa-us-missiles-are-pointed-at-china https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/6/john-pilger-qa-...
TrueDuality 5y ago
All sanctions could fuel retaliation by the Russian government, the point is to punish them for their actions. Likewise the Russian government will spread propaganda about all of the sanctions regardless of what they are. This would be a very tricky thing to "punish" and a tricky thing to implement in practice because this isn't a single government that would need to stop announcing these networks, but each private internet organization that is peering with Russia (think oversea cables and international peer exchanges). It could be mandated by governments for their own country, but to be actually effective it would have to be all the organizations peering with Russia agreeing to implement this. If one country or organization decides against the announcement filter you'd have to expand the route filtering to everyone that organization peers with. There would never be one target for the punishment. As for learning about the propaganda, a large part of what we learn is from Russian state TV and actors inside of Russia itself which this wouldn't impact. Since the major official propaganda channels have already been blocked on YouTube and the social media platforms, this would likely only impact the propaganda being spread through much smaller and harder to track sites if at all since posting of that propaganda could still be done from a cell or normal business internet connection. Some official government supported programs (such as the GRU hacking operations) already operate on regular business connections to avoid the direct association with government IP blocks, I have to imagine their propaganda machines do likewise.
- robbomacrae 5y ago
  I wonder how we could crowd source / make a wiki for liesyourgovtellsyou dot com website that works for every country. I don't think any country or state is innocent in this regard.
deepsun 5y ago
1. They constantly lying about everything already. Like literally 99% of everything they say is lies. 2. They could always know. But they don't, because they don't care. And for the sake of their brains, I wouldn't recommend it. Besides, are you proposing to feed Russian propaganda to western public?
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Are you talking about the US because both of those statements remind me of the US government and media but instead it is American propaganda
netmonk 5y ago
This comment assumes that western peoples are safe some any kind of propaganda. Well from my humble opinion i think otherwise.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  I keep hearting this false equivalence. Sure the west is full of propaganda, but what's going on in russia is another level. I heard from people on the ground in ukraine that the this is a full on aggression and I heard from other people in russia that the common people literally believe that this is just a special operation that meant to overthrow the corrupted government etc etc. How, in the past similar propaganda happened in the west, when the average american thought civilians in afganistan or iraq weren't really hurt when the US "surgically" tried to punish the "bad guys". I get it; and in the same vein I wouldn't think that the solution for that propaganda was to cut off the american population from actually getting information from abroad.
  - neltnerb 5y ago
    I'd say that the key difference is that in, say, the US -- yes, there's tons of very stupid stuff said by media uncritically, and there's stuff the government says. But it's also easy to find opposition points of view. Case in point, mask mandates and convoys. Propaganda still works, same as marketing and advertisements, but it really does not seem equivalent when it's so easy to access information critical of what your government is doing. Unlike when all media critical of the government gets banned. No one tried to arrest me for protesting the Iraq war, or Guantanamo, or Afghanistan, or... But the "mainstream" media definitely has huge blind spots, implicit racism, and other nasty features from either habit or laziness.
    - ithkuil 5y ago
      I agree and it really bothers me how otherwise well intentioned people in my neighborhood in the European country where I live fall in the trap of saying that the west (and the US in particular) is "just so bad" etc. They are pro Russia trolls or whatnot, it's genuine widespread confusion. And I have to say that I do blame america for creating so many precedents of hypocrisy that they fueled this cynicism to an extent that spills over the usual group of local conspiratorial nutjobs. That said, I'd take this hypocrisy every day instead of people being actually killed. I mean it's not a videogame for cry ing out loud, these are people's lives. War is a fucking hell.

RhodesianHunter 5y ago

WRT #1 - Repeatedly not taking action out of fear of Russian retaliation is precisely what has gotten us to this point. Putin will step over the line until the west pushes back.

_-david-_ 5y ago
Taking actions is what got us here. Many of the times when the West tries to push institutions east Russia retaliates. Look at the Georgia war and Crimea for example.
- witrak 5y ago
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    I am very much against Putin and think his attacks are wrong. I documented what I meant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30543599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30543599
- gran_colombia 5y ago
  Russia does not invade in reaction to NATO expansion. NATO expands in reaction to Russian invasions. Notice how NATO does not expand militarily. Not once. Notice how Russia expands militarily, every time.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    In 2020 NATO said themselves: "Allied leaders also agreed at Bucharest that Georgia and Ukraine, which were already engaged in Intensified Dialogues with NATO, will one day become members. In December 2008, Allied foreign ministers decided to enhance opportunities for assisting the two countries in efforts to meet membership requirements by making use of the framework of the existing NATO-Ukraine Commission and NATO-Georgia Commission – without prejudice to further decisions which may be taken about their applications to join the MAP." https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49212.htm
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      2020 was after the invasions of both Georgia (2008) and Ukraine (2014).
      - waffleiron 5y ago
        Note the December 2008 in the quote, i.e. before Ukraine and after Georgia.
        _-david-_ 5y ago
        Georgia was in August 2008. You have the wrong quote. This quote is from from April 2008 >NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
  - cabalamat 5y ago
    Following the setup of NATO, 18 further countries joined it. Most (11) of them joined when Putin was in charge of Russia. Putin is NATO's best recruiting sergeant. Russia is the only country in the world with a massive formal alliance of major world powers reigned against it. This is because of continued Russian aggression and atrocities going back a long time.
brabel 5y ago
There's an argument to be made both ways. I've been quite shocked when I moved to Europe and noticed that very strong Anti-Russia stance that's openly spoused here... if I were Russian, I would be genuinely worried about them having facilities to hold nuclear weapons, which is what happens when you join NATO [1]. NATO already borders Russia directly in the Baltic states, nearly touches it with Poland (the historic gateway of Western armies into Russia), and if Ukraine joined NATO, the Russian heartland would become vulnerable not only to nukes but to large-scale ground invasion, as the border with Ukraine is very long and completely devoid of geographical obstacles... so even though I despise Putin for starting this war (I despise anyone who starts a war... war is a remnant of our primitive, violent past where force was accepted as a viable solution to problems), I definitely don't hold the West as being blame-free in this story. Everyone involved knew there was no bigger provocation to Russian than installing nukes on its closer, until very recently friendly, neighbours. John Pilger has been warning us that NATO/USA expansion even into the Chinese sphere [2] is making the world incredibly more dangerous, not less. “American bases form a giant noose encircling China with missiles, bombers, warships – all the way from Australia through the Pacific to Asia and beyond,” Pilger says. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/6/john-pilger-qa-us-missiles-are-pointed-at-china https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/6/john-pilger-qa-...

TrueDuality 5y ago

All sanctions could fuel retaliation by the Russian government, the point is to punish them for their actions. Likewise the Russian government will spread propaganda about all of the sanctions regardless of what they are. This would be a very tricky thing to "punish" and a tricky thing to implement in practice because this isn't a single government that would need to stop announcing these networks, but each private internet organization that is peering with Russia (think oversea cables and international peer exchanges). It could be mandated by governments for their own country, but to be actually effective it would have to be all the organizations peering with Russia agreeing to implement this. If one country or organization decides against the announcement filter you'd have to expand the route filtering to everyone that organization peers with. There would never be one target for the punishment. As for learning about the propaganda, a large part of what we learn is from Russian state TV and actors inside of Russia itself which this wouldn't impact. Since the major official propaganda channels have already been blocked on YouTube and the social media platforms, this would likely only impact the propaganda being spread through much smaller and harder to track sites if at all since posting of that propaganda could still be done from a cell or normal business internet connection. Some official government supported programs (such as the GRU hacking operations) already operate on regular business connections to avoid the direct association with government IP blocks, I have to imagine their propaganda machines do likewise.

robbomacrae 5y ago
I wonder how we could crowd source / make a wiki for liesyourgovtellsyou dot com website that works for every country. I don't think any country or state is innocent in this regard.

deepsun 5y ago

1. They constantly lying about everything already. Like literally 99% of everything they say is lies. 2. They could always know. But they don't, because they don't care. And for the sake of their brains, I wouldn't recommend it. Besides, are you proposing to feed Russian propaganda to western public?

encryptluks2 5y ago
Are you talking about the US because both of those statements remind me of the US government and media but instead it is American propaganda

netmonk 5y ago

This comment assumes that western peoples are safe some any kind of propaganda. Well from my humble opinion i think otherwise.

ithkuil 5y ago
I keep hearting this false equivalence. Sure the west is full of propaganda, but what's going on in russia is another level. I heard from people on the ground in ukraine that the this is a full on aggression and I heard from other people in russia that the common people literally believe that this is just a special operation that meant to overthrow the corrupted government etc etc. How, in the past similar propaganda happened in the west, when the average american thought civilians in afganistan or iraq weren't really hurt when the US "surgically" tried to punish the "bad guys". I get it; and in the same vein I wouldn't think that the solution for that propaganda was to cut off the american population from actually getting information from abroad.
- neltnerb 5y ago
  I'd say that the key difference is that in, say, the US -- yes, there's tons of very stupid stuff said by media uncritically, and there's stuff the government says. But it's also easy to find opposition points of view. Case in point, mask mandates and convoys. Propaganda still works, same as marketing and advertisements, but it really does not seem equivalent when it's so easy to access information critical of what your government is doing. Unlike when all media critical of the government gets banned. No one tried to arrest me for protesting the Iraq war, or Guantanamo, or Afghanistan, or... But the "mainstream" media definitely has huge blind spots, implicit racism, and other nasty features from either habit or laziness.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    I agree and it really bothers me how otherwise well intentioned people in my neighborhood in the European country where I live fall in the trap of saying that the west (and the US in particular) is "just so bad" etc. They are pro Russia trolls or whatnot, it's genuine widespread confusion. And I have to say that I do blame america for creating so many precedents of hypocrisy that they fueled this cynicism to an extent that spills over the usual group of local conspiratorial nutjobs. That said, I'd take this hypocrisy every day instead of people being actually killed. I mean it's not a videogame for cry ing out loud, these are people's lives. War is a fucking hell.