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In the 19th century Russia was invaded by Napoleon, most of Moscow was burnt to the ground on that occasion. In the 20th century Nazi Germany invaded Russia wi

In the 19th century Russia was invaded by Napoleon, most of Moscow was burnt to the ground on that occasion. In the 20th century Nazi Germany invaded Russia with an obvious program to exterminate the Slavic people. Forty million Russians died on that occasion. You have to understand how such events embed in the collective consciousness of a people. For Russia, the danger comes from the west and it's real. It's all very easy for us to say "Oh but we are really peaceful and enlightened now". Except that we have been expanding NATO to the west, essentially breaking a promise we made to Russia when Germany was reunited. Nothing of this justifies the brutal invasion of Ukraine right now, but the whole story is a little bit more complicated than "muh Russia evil".

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
smcl 5y ago
Who said “muh Russia evil”? You’re infantilising Putin as a lil smol bean who’s feeling really scared, and reaching back in time for supporting evidence and finding conflicts that happened with totally different contexts and ignoring or hand-waving away anything that might contradict this. I think this is a mistake. Here’s what I think is going on, we have had a number of controversial recent wars where US and British (and various allies) were categorically, undeniably in the wrong. There was a media frenzy during those conflicts which was used to manipulate popular opinion in favour of these conflicts, so many of us are now mistrustful of when we get a sense this sort of thing is happening. There is now a popular push for US and allies to be more involved in an ongoing conflict which is getting a lot of attention in the media. It is instinctive and natural to assume we are being manipulated once more and to not want to get caught up in it. We probably are to some extent, so it is right to be mistrustful and take some things with a pinch of salt. But many people are overcorrecting - saying that not just should we not start WW3 (which is a sensible position), but that this is actually mostly our fault (which is a stretch). And starting with that belief people have had to work back to find something to support it. With the tit-for-tat nature of geopolitics mixed with our continents extensive history of horrific warfare you can probably paint any of the former great powers as the source of all evil in many modern conflicts today if you want to (in some cases you’d be right too). In this case I think you’re wrong though. In one respect the situation is complex in that there’s no clear path out of it. But it’s also very simple in that there is one very very clear aggressor who has initiated a bloody conflict on flimsy grounds (in fact his stated goal was “denazifying” Ukraine which none of you guys have mentioned) and I think anyone being proudly contrarian about it is going to feel a bit silly about it when the dust settles.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

smcl 5y ago

Who said “muh Russia evil”? You’re infantilising Putin as a lil smol bean who’s feeling really scared, and reaching back in time for supporting evidence and finding conflicts that happened with totally different contexts and ignoring or hand-waving away anything that might contradict this. I think this is a mistake. Here’s what I think is going on, we have had a number of controversial recent wars where US and British (and various allies) were categorically, undeniably in the wrong. There was a media frenzy during those conflicts which was used to manipulate popular opinion in favour of these conflicts, so many of us are now mistrustful of when we get a sense this sort of thing is happening. There is now a popular push for US and allies to be more involved in an ongoing conflict which is getting a lot of attention in the media. It is instinctive and natural to assume we are being manipulated once more and to not want to get caught up in it. We probably are to some extent, so it is right to be mistrustful and take some things with a pinch of salt. But many people are overcorrecting - saying that not just should we not start WW3 (which is a sensible position), but that this is actually mostly our fault (which is a stretch). And starting with that belief people have had to work back to find something to support it. With the tit-for-tat nature of geopolitics mixed with our continents extensive history of horrific warfare you can probably paint any of the former great powers as the source of all evil in many modern conflicts today if you want to (in some cases you’d be right too). In this case I think you’re wrong though. In one respect the situation is complex in that there’s no clear path out of it. But it’s also very simple in that there is one very very clear aggressor who has initiated a bloody conflict on flimsy grounds (in fact his stated goal was “denazifying” Ukraine which none of you guys have mentioned) and I think anyone being proudly contrarian about it is going to feel a bit silly about it when the dust settles.