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On the other hand, I do feel worried about two large superpowers run by dictators teaming up. It’s been good seeing the west somewhat united over this Russia th

On the other hand, I do feel worried about two large superpowers run by dictators teaming up. It’s been good seeing the west somewhat united over this Russia thing, but maybe we should think about the need for western unity more broadly than the Ukraine crisis.

ModernMech 5y ago
> maybe we should think about the need for western unity more broadly than the Ukraine crisis. I think that is shaping up right now. This whole thing is bigger than Ukraine and Russia in the sense that it's really about autocracy vs. democracy. Forces in America like Peter Thiel, who say that they “no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible”, would love nothing more to set up an autocratic regime here where they are in charge, the way Putin has control in Russia, or Xi has control in China. 2016-2020 saw much of the political establishment here in the US side with authoritarian ideals, to the point where the President and Senators were even parroting Russian state propaganda straight from the Kremlin. There's a whole lot of people here in America who believe what Putin is doing is smart and savvy, and they would love nothing more to have the kind of unilateral power that he has, but with the American government, economy, and military at their whim. There are groups in Germany, France, and the UK who have the same feeling about democracy. This is truly the test of our generation.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > I think that is shaping up right now. I hope so. I share your concern about Trumpism and Kremlin-sympathizing in the United States, but it's a mistake to think that authoritarianism is exclusively a right-wing phenomenon considering the last decade saw unprecedented attacks on free speech, racial egalitarianism (i.e., what the left pejoratively refers to as "colorblindness"), and unjustifiable overreach with respect to COVID protocols (and prior to 2021-01-06, left-wing groups had a monopoly over anti-democratic, revolutionary rhetoric). Moreover, populism on the left and especially on the right is a symptom and not a cause in and of itself, and we should tread lightly so as to not exacerbate the root cause and inadvertently create more populists (e.g., by trying to "crack down" on populism). Personally, I think we need to re-establish our "civic religion" with respect to western democratic values and anti-authoritarianism and to emphasize an American identity rather than racial or partisan identities. For those of us on the left, this probably implies a course correction from hyperbolic criticisms of the US and the West toward a narrative which acknowledges that for all its faults, we could do a lot worse than western democracy and egalitarianism. For both sides, we need to stop looking at "the other side" as the cause of all our woes and start building bridges or western superpowers will become too weak to keep authoritarian superpowers in check.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > but it's a mistake to think that authoritarianism is exclusively a right-wing phenomenon I think we have to draw a distinction between authoritarianism and illiberalism. The American left is highly illiberal, which is one thing. But I don't think they are authoritarian yet because they don't have their own Trump -- authoritarianism revolves around the authoritarian. Joe Biden isn't a Trump and neither is Bernie Sanders for that matter. Even AOC. They have a more pluralistic message even if it is illiberal. The message of the authoritarian is "I alone can fix it". I think Trump unironically said literally those exact words. I mean, he sang all the authoritarian tunes including such hits as "the media is the enemy of the people" and "what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening", quotes that could have come straight from Stalin and 1984. It's not subtle. For this reason, I don't see the left as an authoritarian threat right now. The right has metastasized and has all the elements necessary to go the rest of the way. > Personally, I think we need to re-establish our "civic religion" with respect to western democratic values and anti-authoritarianism and to emphasize an American identity rather than racial or partisan identities. Yes, I'm with you there.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > I think we have to draw a distinction between authoritarianism and illiberalism. Fair enough. I'm less sure about the specific technical distinctions, and I'm more concerned about the magnitude of the illiberalism rather than the particular way it is organized. I.e., I'm not convinced that one illiberal president is worse than the institutional illiberalism in the media, the academy, entertainment, public education, etc. So long as we can maintain liberal, democratic norms, the checks on the President's power remain robust; however, the left and the right both frequently work to degrade those norms. However, I am pretty sure that (while it wasn't always this way) right-wing illiberalism is largely a response to left-wing illiberalism for the last decade or so. The left sets the precedent and the right responds in kind, often with years of delay (although I think the lag time is decreasing quickly). I'm thinking of things like: * January 6th couldn't have happened if politicians, the media, celebrities, etc hadn't breathlessly defended, justified, and/or fanned BLM riots for the better part of a decade. * The ranks of far-right groups didn't swell until woke race ideologies were preached for years in the media, classrooms, DEI departments, etc * "cancel culture"[^1] was a left-wing innovation before the right eventually (and half-heartedly) adopted it Note that this isn't to ascribe guilt to the left, but rather to observe how the system works because it hints at some solutions. Off the top of my head: 1. Work to restore the aspirational neutrality and objectivity of epistemological institutions 2. Hold the left accountable to liberal standards, just like we hold the right accountable 3. Denounce narratives which seek to deprecate our American identity in favor of racial, sexual, religious, or political identities. [^1]: Cancel culture: campaigns to petition someone's employer to terminate the employment relationship (and thus access to income, healthcare, etc) for speech which the in-group finds objectionable, but which is otherwise well-within the Overton Window. Especially with respect to ordinary people (as opposed to celebrities and others who are mostly symbolic targets).
- dzonga 5y ago
  yeah, most people i.e liberal leaning ones seem to have wool on their eyes and minds. they don't see that fascism is slowly brewing up. Putin literally represents the last great hope. And even soon enough, liberals will be disillusioned by liberal policies - you can see this happening in places like San franscisco. where you can buy a luxury apartment, but have tents and human shit at your front gate. Soon enough, a fascist will come around and they will say I will fix all your problems - from looting, excessive taxes, nimby laws etc if you allow to me chip at some laws / regulations getting in the way. Libertarians like Peter Thiel mixed with fascists is a complete disaster. And remember libertarians run rampant in SV circles. Trump wasn't smart enough to get it done. But he's provided the playbook. I'm a liberal leaning black dude. But I can see what's coming a mile away.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > Trump wasn't smart enough to get it done. I think it's dangerous to believe being a good fascist/authoritarian takes smarts. What it really takes is cunning, a huge ego, lack of a conscience, and the ability to make a million people follow you while plugging their eyes and ears to anything else except the words of the authoritarian. Being smart has nothing to do with it. Well, maybe that can play into it but the worst authoritarians in the world's history were narcissistic psychopaths, not smart, rational tactical geniuses. The West's biggest mistake with Putin was buying into his own propaganda, that he's a tactical genius rather than an abject psychopath. Being a psychopath, he may make moves that seem tactical to others, but really they are just never considered because those moves are so psychopathic; good people with consciences don't do what Putin does because they're dumb, but because they have souls. People like Putin and Trump see that restraint as a character flaw and a sign of weakness. It's why everyone was so sure he would never invade Ukraine. And then he did, leaving them dumbfounded. "But it's such tactical mistake!" Yeah, because it was never about tactics, it was bout killing Ukrainians and feeling like a big boy while he does it. That's the whole goal. Lying your ass off and then being ruthless when people believe you is the name of the game. I was hoping the the whole idea that "Oh sure, Trump is crazy but he's not that dangerous because look how dumb he is" would have died on 1/6. On that day we were perilously close to Trump kicking off his authoritarian ambitions. Smarter people usually don't have the charisma or lack of conscience to pull authoritarianism off. A charismatic authoritarian is far more dangerous than a smart one.
tekknik 5y ago
3, let’s not forget about North Korea
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  NK is a nuclear power, but not much of a superpower and in many respects they seem like a vassal state of China. But to your point, they are part of a worrisome coalition nevertheless.
mediumsmart 5y ago
Maybe Joe can install a couple of US friendly dictators like Saddam Hussein was back in the days of Rumsfeld so then the other superpowers will play for team America as they should.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Is there a salient point, or is this garden variety cynicism?

ModernMech 5y ago

> maybe we should think about the need for western unity more broadly than the Ukraine crisis. I think that is shaping up right now. This whole thing is bigger than Ukraine and Russia in the sense that it's really about autocracy vs. democracy. Forces in America like Peter Thiel, who say that they “no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible”, would love nothing more to set up an autocratic regime here where they are in charge, the way Putin has control in Russia, or Xi has control in China. 2016-2020 saw much of the political establishment here in the US side with authoritarian ideals, to the point where the President and Senators were even parroting Russian state propaganda straight from the Kremlin. There's a whole lot of people here in America who believe what Putin is doing is smart and savvy, and they would love nothing more to have the kind of unilateral power that he has, but with the American government, economy, and military at their whim. There are groups in Germany, France, and the UK who have the same feeling about democracy. This is truly the test of our generation.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> I think that is shaping up right now. I hope so. I share your concern about Trumpism and Kremlin-sympathizing in the United States, but it's a mistake to think that authoritarianism is exclusively a right-wing phenomenon considering the last decade saw unprecedented attacks on free speech, racial egalitarianism (i.e., what the left pejoratively refers to as "colorblindness"), and unjustifiable overreach with respect to COVID protocols (and prior to 2021-01-06, left-wing groups had a monopoly over anti-democratic, revolutionary rhetoric). Moreover, populism on the left and especially on the right is a symptom and not a cause in and of itself, and we should tread lightly so as to not exacerbate the root cause and inadvertently create more populists (e.g., by trying to "crack down" on populism). Personally, I think we need to re-establish our "civic religion" with respect to western democratic values and anti-authoritarianism and to emphasize an American identity rather than racial or partisan identities. For those of us on the left, this probably implies a course correction from hyperbolic criticisms of the US and the West toward a narrative which acknowledges that for all its faults, we could do a lot worse than western democracy and egalitarianism. For both sides, we need to stop looking at "the other side" as the cause of all our woes and start building bridges or western superpowers will become too weak to keep authoritarian superpowers in check.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > but it's a mistake to think that authoritarianism is exclusively a right-wing phenomenon I think we have to draw a distinction between authoritarianism and illiberalism. The American left is highly illiberal, which is one thing. But I don't think they are authoritarian yet because they don't have their own Trump -- authoritarianism revolves around the authoritarian. Joe Biden isn't a Trump and neither is Bernie Sanders for that matter. Even AOC. They have a more pluralistic message even if it is illiberal. The message of the authoritarian is "I alone can fix it". I think Trump unironically said literally those exact words. I mean, he sang all the authoritarian tunes including such hits as "the media is the enemy of the people" and "what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening", quotes that could have come straight from Stalin and 1984. It's not subtle. For this reason, I don't see the left as an authoritarian threat right now. The right has metastasized and has all the elements necessary to go the rest of the way. > Personally, I think we need to re-establish our "civic religion" with respect to western democratic values and anti-authoritarianism and to emphasize an American identity rather than racial or partisan identities. Yes, I'm with you there.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > I think we have to draw a distinction between authoritarianism and illiberalism. Fair enough. I'm less sure about the specific technical distinctions, and I'm more concerned about the magnitude of the illiberalism rather than the particular way it is organized. I.e., I'm not convinced that one illiberal president is worse than the institutional illiberalism in the media, the academy, entertainment, public education, etc. So long as we can maintain liberal, democratic norms, the checks on the President's power remain robust; however, the left and the right both frequently work to degrade those norms. However, I am pretty sure that (while it wasn't always this way) right-wing illiberalism is largely a response to left-wing illiberalism for the last decade or so. The left sets the precedent and the right responds in kind, often with years of delay (although I think the lag time is decreasing quickly). I'm thinking of things like: * January 6th couldn't have happened if politicians, the media, celebrities, etc hadn't breathlessly defended, justified, and/or fanned BLM riots for the better part of a decade. * The ranks of far-right groups didn't swell until woke race ideologies were preached for years in the media, classrooms, DEI departments, etc * "cancel culture"[^1] was a left-wing innovation before the right eventually (and half-heartedly) adopted it Note that this isn't to ascribe guilt to the left, but rather to observe how the system works because it hints at some solutions. Off the top of my head: 1. Work to restore the aspirational neutrality and objectivity of epistemological institutions 2. Hold the left accountable to liberal standards, just like we hold the right accountable 3. Denounce narratives which seek to deprecate our American identity in favor of racial, sexual, religious, or political identities. [^1]: Cancel culture: campaigns to petition someone's employer to terminate the employment relationship (and thus access to income, healthcare, etc) for speech which the in-group finds objectionable, but which is otherwise well-within the Overton Window. Especially with respect to ordinary people (as opposed to celebrities and others who are mostly symbolic targets).
dzonga 5y ago
yeah, most people i.e liberal leaning ones seem to have wool on their eyes and minds. they don't see that fascism is slowly brewing up. Putin literally represents the last great hope. And even soon enough, liberals will be disillusioned by liberal policies - you can see this happening in places like San franscisco. where you can buy a luxury apartment, but have tents and human shit at your front gate. Soon enough, a fascist will come around and they will say I will fix all your problems - from looting, excessive taxes, nimby laws etc if you allow to me chip at some laws / regulations getting in the way. Libertarians like Peter Thiel mixed with fascists is a complete disaster. And remember libertarians run rampant in SV circles. Trump wasn't smart enough to get it done. But he's provided the playbook. I'm a liberal leaning black dude. But I can see what's coming a mile away.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > Trump wasn't smart enough to get it done. I think it's dangerous to believe being a good fascist/authoritarian takes smarts. What it really takes is cunning, a huge ego, lack of a conscience, and the ability to make a million people follow you while plugging their eyes and ears to anything else except the words of the authoritarian. Being smart has nothing to do with it. Well, maybe that can play into it but the worst authoritarians in the world's history were narcissistic psychopaths, not smart, rational tactical geniuses. The West's biggest mistake with Putin was buying into his own propaganda, that he's a tactical genius rather than an abject psychopath. Being a psychopath, he may make moves that seem tactical to others, but really they are just never considered because those moves are so psychopathic; good people with consciences don't do what Putin does because they're dumb, but because they have souls. People like Putin and Trump see that restraint as a character flaw and a sign of weakness. It's why everyone was so sure he would never invade Ukraine. And then he did, leaving them dumbfounded. "But it's such tactical mistake!" Yeah, because it was never about tactics, it was bout killing Ukrainians and feeling like a big boy while he does it. That's the whole goal. Lying your ass off and then being ruthless when people believe you is the name of the game. I was hoping the the whole idea that "Oh sure, Trump is crazy but he's not that dangerous because look how dumb he is" would have died on 1/6. On that day we were perilously close to Trump kicking off his authoritarian ambitions. Smarter people usually don't have the charisma or lack of conscience to pull authoritarianism off. A charismatic authoritarian is far more dangerous than a smart one.

tekknik 5y ago

3, let’s not forget about North Korea

throwaway894345 5y ago
NK is a nuclear power, but not much of a superpower and in many respects they seem like a vassal state of China. But to your point, they are part of a worrisome coalition nevertheless.

mediumsmart 5y ago

Maybe Joe can install a couple of US friendly dictators like Saddam Hussein was back in the days of Rumsfeld so then the other superpowers will play for team America as they should.

throwaway894345 5y ago
Is there a salient point, or is this garden variety cynicism?