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>What could have changed it is if the Dutch, the Belgians and most of all the Germans had acted like adults in the world. Instead they have been dancing on the

>What could have changed it is if the Dutch, the Belgians and most of all the Germans had acted like adults in the world. Instead they have been dancing on the edge of a disaster. Vague and weird words that could mean almost anything. Speak plainly.

sgt101 5y ago
Ok, how about this. 1. Spending <1.2% of GDP on defence 2. Reducing tanks to 18 (Holland). 18! 1 per million people. 57 howitzers. 40 fighter aircraft. 3. Germany : arming its troops with broomsticks. BROOMSTICKS (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germany-s-neglected-soldiers-forced-to-use-broomstick-as-a-gun-glnqbndf6 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germany-s-neglected-soldi...) 4. Belgium : 0 (read it straight) 0 MBT. 0. 1 Self propelled gun I think. These are rich and powerful countries. They have been utterly delinquent for the last 20 years. When you see unanswered Russian aggression in the east it's because these people who should be the core of European power have pretended that everything will be alright if they let their martial capabilities rot. It's not only their forces (and foreign policy, particularly Germany's and the EU's in Ukraine and the Balkans). The near evisceration of the European military infrastructure and production capability has screwed everyone. Where is the Tornado replacement? Let alone the Eurofighter replacement? How many F35's has Germany bought (spoiler :0) how much more expensive has that made F35 for everyone else (spoiler : alot). Now the Germans are going >2% on defence - how many years will it take for that kind of money just to repair the barracks? Where is the Dutch emergency budget? (https://nltimes.nl/2022/03/01/dutch-armed-forces-facing-russia-defense-state-sec-told https://nltimes.nl/2022/03/01/dutch-armed-forces-facing-russ... --- let's grow towards 2%!) Also the wording is an allusion to the first world war.
- Lascaille 5y ago
  But what's happening in the Ukranian theatre validates all of that. The Russian military is being revealed as a paper tiger. It makes no sense to invest heavily in defence when your enemy doesn't have any real forces they can deploy. Unless you choose to believe that the Russian military, for some reason, is throwing green units and third-tier armor into the field - and holding back battalion after battalion of elite troops equipped with elitely-maintaine vehicles - it seems very hard to criticise European levels of defence spending given the reality of the enemy forces it appears to face.
  - sgt101 5y ago
    Tell me the cost of a failed Russian invasion of Poland, or Estonia. Even if they do get beaten with a broomstick and sent back to Moscow in little bags how much damage would it do? That's why to spend. Having a strong defense deters this kind of thing. Having the US divided and Europe impotent has enabled this behavior.
    - Lascaille 5y ago
      >Having a strong defense deters this kind of thing. Yes, and it appears to be working. Russia is invading Ukraine, not Poland.

sgt101 5y ago

Ok, how about this. 1. Spending <1.2% of GDP on defence 2. Reducing tanks to 18 (Holland). 18! 1 per million people. 57 howitzers. 40 fighter aircraft. 3. Germany : arming its troops with broomsticks. BROOMSTICKS (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germany-s-neglected-soldiers-forced-to-use-broomstick-as-a-gun-glnqbndf6 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germany-s-neglected-soldi...) 4. Belgium : 0 (read it straight) 0 MBT. 0. 1 Self propelled gun I think. These are rich and powerful countries. They have been utterly delinquent for the last 20 years. When you see unanswered Russian aggression in the east it's because these people who should be the core of European power have pretended that everything will be alright if they let their martial capabilities rot. It's not only their forces (and foreign policy, particularly Germany's and the EU's in Ukraine and the Balkans). The near evisceration of the European military infrastructure and production capability has screwed everyone. Where is the Tornado replacement? Let alone the Eurofighter replacement? How many F35's has Germany bought (spoiler :0) how much more expensive has that made F35 for everyone else (spoiler : alot). Now the Germans are going >2% on defence - how many years will it take for that kind of money just to repair the barracks? Where is the Dutch emergency budget? (https://nltimes.nl/2022/03/01/dutch-armed-forces-facing-russia-defense-state-sec-told https://nltimes.nl/2022/03/01/dutch-armed-forces-facing-russ... --- let's grow towards 2%!) Also the wording is an allusion to the first world war.

Lascaille 5y ago
But what's happening in the Ukranian theatre validates all of that. The Russian military is being revealed as a paper tiger. It makes no sense to invest heavily in defence when your enemy doesn't have any real forces they can deploy. Unless you choose to believe that the Russian military, for some reason, is throwing green units and third-tier armor into the field - and holding back battalion after battalion of elite troops equipped with elitely-maintaine vehicles - it seems very hard to criticise European levels of defence spending given the reality of the enemy forces it appears to face.
- sgt101 5y ago
  Tell me the cost of a failed Russian invasion of Poland, or Estonia. Even if they do get beaten with a broomstick and sent back to Moscow in little bags how much damage would it do? That's why to spend. Having a strong defense deters this kind of thing. Having the US divided and Europe impotent has enabled this behavior.
  - Lascaille 5y ago
    >Having a strong defense deters this kind of thing. Yes, and it appears to be working. Russia is invading Ukraine, not Poland.