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I obviously support Ukraine in their fight against invaders (and I am Russian born), but cutting the internet from Russia would be actually more useful for the

I obviously support Ukraine in their fight against invaders (and I am Russian born), but cutting the internet from Russia would be actually more useful for the Russian government than Ukraine. Russian government just today closed the last independent radio station, blocked the website of an independent tv station , so blocking the internet would just be applauded by the Russian state for doing what they wanted to do themselves.

_fat_santa 5y ago
Couldn't agree more with what you said here. I have split feelings on punitive punishments like this. I like many others have family in Russia, anytime you take a punitive measure like this, sure it may punish those responsible, but it's really just going to punish every day people that just want to contact their families. Russia getting cut off from financial services is also a huge problem for every day people with families there. Right when the Ruble collapses, we have fewer and fewer means of supporting our families over there. I get the why, we are trying to cut off Putin and the oligarchs at the knees, but it's sad that everyone else is getting swept up in it.
TameAntelope 5y ago
More importantly (IMO) I support ICANN. If they think it makes sense to cut off Russia from the Internet, I trust them. They don't think it makes sense, so I trust them. Do I think they made the right call? Yeah, but I'm a dum dum on the Internet who has thought about this for all of 5 minutes. There might be some better form of this argument that's more nuanced than I have time to understand, so I want to be able to leave it up to ICANN to figure stuff out like this and do what's best.
- Avalaxy 5y ago
  Be careful with that kind of reasoning. Appeal to authority is a fallacy that can bite you in the ass. Pretty sure many Russians trust Putin to make the right choices.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    I'm not appealing to authority; I'm not agreeing with them because they're the authority, I'm deferring to them because I trust their decision making process.
    - slim 5y ago
      I'm curious about what makes you trust the process so much. Is it a perfect track record ? or is it a particularly transparent or innovative process ?
      - antifa 5y ago
        Probably waiting for a more compelling augment, from either side.
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        Working with their representatives (admittedly only tangentially, mostly via observation) during my time at ARIN, as well as their prior body of decision making work and how it's positively influenced the outcome of the Internet as a whole.
  - nybble41 5y ago
    > Appeal to authority is a fallacy Yes, but it isn't a fallacy which is occurring here. Provisionally accepting the reasoned opinion of a domain expert is a rational choice in situations where re-evaluating everything from first principles is not an option. This is not an appeal to authority unless their conclusion is taken to be true simply because they are an authority, without regard for how that conclusion was reached. There is naturally room for error; you're trusting in the expert's skill, experience, logic, motivation, and above all honesty to collaboratively assembly an argument larger than you could put together on your own, and each party must do their part. If the expert's reasoning is deceptive, flawed, or misinterpreted, then the argument falls apart—but you're not just taking their word as fact, you're trusting them to produce rational conclusions from the evidence in the same way that you would if you had their knowledge and experience (and unlimited time). Naturally, some experts are more trustworthy in any given domain than others. Anyone relying on Putin for conclusions on just about anything (even his own self-interest) is likely to be disappointed.
oh_sigh 5y ago
I don't exactly buy this because if that were the case, why wouldn't Russia just cut off their internet themselves? And maybe blame it on the West if anyone asked.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  Because people will riot if it is done by the Russian government. But if it is done by the other side, they'll just play victim and be secretly extremely happy about it, now controlling all information sources in the country.
  - skolos 5y ago
    How Russian people would know about this? You are underestimating efficiency of Russian propaganda machine. Russian government does not shy away from inflicting damage onto Russian people and pointing finger to the West.
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    What would happen with digital coins? Buying, selling bitcoins in such scenery?
varenc 5y ago
The proposal sent to ICANN isn't about just cutting off Russia's internet from the outside world. It would have disrupted most all internal Russian government-approved usage of the internet as well. If the Russian gov preferred to kill all internet usage, they could have already done so. They clearly want internet access in some form. But I absolutely agree that ICANN made the right decision. It would have set a horrible precedent.
- 542458 5y ago
  I mostly agree, but I do dispute one thing. While technologically there’s no difference between the Russian government disabling their Internet routing and ICANN doing it, politically it’s wildly different.

_fat_santa 5y ago

Couldn't agree more with what you said here. I have split feelings on punitive punishments like this. I like many others have family in Russia, anytime you take a punitive measure like this, sure it may punish those responsible, but it's really just going to punish every day people that just want to contact their families. Russia getting cut off from financial services is also a huge problem for every day people with families there. Right when the Ruble collapses, we have fewer and fewer means of supporting our families over there. I get the why, we are trying to cut off Putin and the oligarchs at the knees, but it's sad that everyone else is getting swept up in it.

TameAntelope 5y ago

More importantly (IMO) I support ICANN. If they think it makes sense to cut off Russia from the Internet, I trust them. They don't think it makes sense, so I trust them. Do I think they made the right call? Yeah, but I'm a dum dum on the Internet who has thought about this for all of 5 minutes. There might be some better form of this argument that's more nuanced than I have time to understand, so I want to be able to leave it up to ICANN to figure stuff out like this and do what's best.

Avalaxy 5y ago
Be careful with that kind of reasoning. Appeal to authority is a fallacy that can bite you in the ass. Pretty sure many Russians trust Putin to make the right choices.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  I'm not appealing to authority; I'm not agreeing with them because they're the authority, I'm deferring to them because I trust their decision making process.
  - slim 5y ago
    I'm curious about what makes you trust the process so much. Is it a perfect track record ? or is it a particularly transparent or innovative process ?
    - antifa 5y ago
      Probably waiting for a more compelling augment, from either side.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Working with their representatives (admittedly only tangentially, mostly via observation) during my time at ARIN, as well as their prior body of decision making work and how it's positively influenced the outcome of the Internet as a whole.
- nybble41 5y ago
  > Appeal to authority is a fallacy Yes, but it isn't a fallacy which is occurring here. Provisionally accepting the reasoned opinion of a domain expert is a rational choice in situations where re-evaluating everything from first principles is not an option. This is not an appeal to authority unless their conclusion is taken to be true simply because they are an authority, without regard for how that conclusion was reached. There is naturally room for error; you're trusting in the expert's skill, experience, logic, motivation, and above all honesty to collaboratively assembly an argument larger than you could put together on your own, and each party must do their part. If the expert's reasoning is deceptive, flawed, or misinterpreted, then the argument falls apart—but you're not just taking their word as fact, you're trusting them to produce rational conclusions from the evidence in the same way that you would if you had their knowledge and experience (and unlimited time). Naturally, some experts are more trustworthy in any given domain than others. Anyone relying on Putin for conclusions on just about anything (even his own self-interest) is likely to be disappointed.

oh_sigh 5y ago

I don't exactly buy this because if that were the case, why wouldn't Russia just cut off their internet themselves? And maybe blame it on the West if anyone asked.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Because people will riot if it is done by the Russian government. But if it is done by the other side, they'll just play victim and be secretly extremely happy about it, now controlling all information sources in the country.
- skolos 5y ago
  How Russian people would know about this? You are underestimating efficiency of Russian propaganda machine. Russian government does not shy away from inflicting damage onto Russian people and pointing finger to the West.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  What would happen with digital coins? Buying, selling bitcoins in such scenery?

varenc 5y ago

The proposal sent to ICANN isn't about just cutting off Russia's internet from the outside world. It would have disrupted most all internal Russian government-approved usage of the internet as well. If the Russian gov preferred to kill all internet usage, they could have already done so. They clearly want internet access in some form. But I absolutely agree that ICANN made the right decision. It would have set a horrible precedent.

542458 5y ago
I mostly agree, but I do dispute one thing. While technologically there’s no difference between the Russian government disabling their Internet routing and ICANN doing it, politically it’s wildly different.