5 ms·

The most interesting aspect to this project, to me, is that if you try as hard as you can to come up with something, I am almost certain that there's no way an

by brabel 5y ago

The most interesting aspect to this project, to me, is that if you try as hard as you can to come up with something, I am almost certain that there's no way an agreement can be even remotely reached given the known positions of Ukraine and Russia... I would be incredibly happy if someone actually proposed something that could be acceptable to both parties... failing to do so is like admitting that war was the only way (not saying was is justified, just that given the known positions of both parties, that if one of them was willing to sacrifice themselves by entering a war with the other party - and we knew Russia was willing - and even then, no agreement could be reached, that we couldn't have expected any other outcome).

trhway 5y ago
your post is predicated on the view that it is just a conflict between positions of 2 countries, like say where to put the border. While theoretically "conflict of positions" description is true, the situation here is really different. The position of Ukraine which is its existence and existence of its people is in conflict with the Russian position of "non-existence of Ukraine and Ukrainians" (a bit more on that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30540609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30540609 ). In such situations there is no midway "half-existence". The peace agreement possible here is only like the one in 1945 with Nuremberg 2 for Putin and his clique. As Zelensky has said 20 minutes ago on Ukranian TV "Russians need to start learning the words 'reparations' and 'contributions'". Lets give it a crack: 1. Immediate ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces 2. Russia acknowledges criminal nature of the aggression and gives up the war criminals - Putin, his generals, top political leaders and oligarchs who approved and participated. 3. Russia compensates all the damage to Ukraine. 4. Russia returns Crimea and Donbass (with grace period for the people to relocate who want to stay in Russia and/or Ukraine agrees for Russian language to be a second official language there and some extended autonomy for those regions, may be gradually expiring in say 50-100 years, may be some UN force presence for the next 10-20 years) 5. Russia gives up nuclear weapons and agrees to the limits on military power so it would be suitable and sufficient only for pure defense. 6. Probably some changes to Russian Constitution like hard term limit for President, electability of regional powers, freedom of speech, judicial independence and other measures to make sure that a fascist regime like the current Putin's regime has no chances to arise again.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- brabel 5y ago
  I find your answer emblematic of why the war has started and will probably only end after very bad losses for both sides (Ukraine specially, as the theater of war). You speak as if Ukraine alone had demands to make, despite the fact that its territory is currently occupied and whatever leverage it had before the conflict started, it has lost already. The only way to stop a conflict peacefully while your country is occupied is to make concessions. I understand you might think Ukraine must not make any concessions at all because Russia is on the wrong here... I agree Russia is bad and a bully in this story... but that doesn't matter if the objective is to stop the war. The objective, right now, is not to make justice, that's beyond anyone's reach by a long margin... it's to avoid further loss of life and Ukrainian infrastructure (which if destroyed, will take a full generation to be re-built, and will be paid for by several future generations). Russia is somewhat weakened by the Western World's sanctions, but Ukraine is on its knees right now and quite frankly on its last few breaths as an independent nation, despite everyone rooting for them (there wouldn't be 60km of Russian tanks just outside Kyiv otherwise, with the other largest cities except Odessa already surrounded by the Russian army, and already badly damaged). When a bully has a knife to your throat you don't get to make demands, unfortunately. I am not sure bravery is something to be admired when you know that the cost of your bravery is your country being completely destroyed and whatever you were fithting for simply being bombed out of existence. Ukrainians will live on, and the less destruction there is now, the better equipped they will be to react appropriately when the time comes, but the time just isn't now.
  - trhway 5y ago
    your comment sounds like Ukrainians have a choice here, and that means you don't understand the nature of genocidal conflict. I grew up in USSR where the history of WWII is everywhere. Hitler declared destruction of all Jews and 90% of Slavic. So in December 1941 with Hitler 30km from Moscow your comment would sound the same and would be totally wrong the same way. There wasn't a way to make peace agreement back then and stop the bloodshed. The same way today - there is just no way for Ukrainians to make peace agreement with Putin and stop the bloodshed. It isn't about justice, it is about existence. The only way for Ukrainians to continue to exist is to fight and win that war, and this is what they do. >Ukrainians will live on, and the less destruction there is now, the better equipped they will be to react appropriately when the time comes, but the time just isn't now. That was the logic of 2014, and it was right, it worked, it gave them time to unify and to build better army. Now though Putin is intended to finally solve the "Ukrainian question".

by brabel 5y ago

trhway 5y ago

your post is predicated on the view that it is just a conflict between positions of 2 countries, like say where to put the border. While theoretically "conflict of positions" description is true, the situation here is really different. The position of Ukraine which is its existence and existence of its people is in conflict with the Russian position of "non-existence of Ukraine and Ukrainians" (a bit more on that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30540609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30540609 ). In such situations there is no midway "half-existence". The peace agreement possible here is only like the one in 1945 with Nuremberg 2 for Putin and his clique. As Zelensky has said 20 minutes ago on Ukranian TV "Russians need to start learning the words 'reparations' and 'contributions'". Lets give it a crack: 1. Immediate ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces 2. Russia acknowledges criminal nature of the aggression and gives up the war criminals - Putin, his generals, top political leaders and oligarchs who approved and participated. 3. Russia compensates all the damage to Ukraine. 4. Russia returns Crimea and Donbass (with grace period for the people to relocate who want to stay in Russia and/or Ukraine agrees for Russian language to be a second official language there and some extended autonomy for those regions, may be gradually expiring in say 50-100 years, may be some UN force presence for the next 10-20 years) 5. Russia gives up nuclear weapons and agrees to the limits on military power so it would be suitable and sufficient only for pure defense. 6. Probably some changes to Russian Constitution like hard term limit for President, electability of regional powers, freedom of speech, judicial independence and other measures to make sure that a fascist regime like the current Putin's regime has no chances to arise again.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
brabel 5y ago
I find your answer emblematic of why the war has started and will probably only end after very bad losses for both sides (Ukraine specially, as the theater of war). You speak as if Ukraine alone had demands to make, despite the fact that its territory is currently occupied and whatever leverage it had before the conflict started, it has lost already. The only way to stop a conflict peacefully while your country is occupied is to make concessions. I understand you might think Ukraine must not make any concessions at all because Russia is on the wrong here... I agree Russia is bad and a bully in this story... but that doesn't matter if the objective is to stop the war. The objective, right now, is not to make justice, that's beyond anyone's reach by a long margin... it's to avoid further loss of life and Ukrainian infrastructure (which if destroyed, will take a full generation to be re-built, and will be paid for by several future generations). Russia is somewhat weakened by the Western World's sanctions, but Ukraine is on its knees right now and quite frankly on its last few breaths as an independent nation, despite everyone rooting for them (there wouldn't be 60km of Russian tanks just outside Kyiv otherwise, with the other largest cities except Odessa already surrounded by the Russian army, and already badly damaged). When a bully has a knife to your throat you don't get to make demands, unfortunately. I am not sure bravery is something to be admired when you know that the cost of your bravery is your country being completely destroyed and whatever you were fithting for simply being bombed out of existence. Ukrainians will live on, and the less destruction there is now, the better equipped they will be to react appropriately when the time comes, but the time just isn't now.
- trhway 5y ago
  your comment sounds like Ukrainians have a choice here, and that means you don't understand the nature of genocidal conflict. I grew up in USSR where the history of WWII is everywhere. Hitler declared destruction of all Jews and 90% of Slavic. So in December 1941 with Hitler 30km from Moscow your comment would sound the same and would be totally wrong the same way. There wasn't a way to make peace agreement back then and stop the bloodshed. The same way today - there is just no way for Ukrainians to make peace agreement with Putin and stop the bloodshed. It isn't about justice, it is about existence. The only way for Ukrainians to continue to exist is to fight and win that war, and this is what they do. >Ukrainians will live on, and the less destruction there is now, the better equipped they will be to react appropriately when the time comes, but the time just isn't now. That was the logic of 2014, and it was right, it worked, it gave them time to unify and to build better army. Now though Putin is intended to finally solve the "Ukrainian question".