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Here's a crazier idea; we shouldn't restrict Russia in any way. It's almost a bad idea to silence voices, no matter how much we disagree with them. If anything,

Here's a crazier idea; we shouldn't restrict Russia in any way. It's almost a bad idea to silence voices, no matter how much we disagree with them. If anything, it is more important to challenge their propaganda with better, more accurate news debunking theirs.

VaxWithSex 5y ago
Have you heard of the eternal september?
iso1631 5y ago
It takes far more effort to debunk than to generate, it also takes time, and the debunking doesn't spread virally It's not a solution in the real world
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  Assuming this propaganda is generated by government trolls, it's pretty easy for their handlers to provide them with a VPN that goes through an unlocked country. Blocking their direct access solves nothing.
zelon88 5y ago
Ok, but what does Russia offer the rest of the internet besides badly written malware, WordPress comment spiders, untrue news articles, shady hosting providers, failed login attempts and honeypots full of fuzzing robots? The Russian government actively promotes hacking against the west and refuses to prosecute anyone for it.
- shabier 5y ago
  > Ok, but what does Russia offer the rest of the internet besides badly written malware ... honeypots full of fuzzing robots? Does that even matter? The access to the general internet isn't something you have to "earn". You're not more entitled to be in this space more than the next person regardless of your contribution, beliefs or identity. > The Russian government actively promotes hacking against the west and refuses to prosecute anyone for it. Our government friends at the NSA are equally guilty of that as well, I'm not seeing much outrage over that either.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    > Our government friends at the NSA are equally guilty of that as well, I'm not seeing much outrage over that either. Indeed, all those NSA ransomware attacks on hospitals have to stop! Perhaps they’re not actually equally guilty and the NSA is far more careful with their approach than the Russians? The NotPetya wiper worm was released by the Russian government, the NSA has never been accused of anything similar. This kind of false equivalency is nothing but dishonest, you should be ashamed of yourself.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - foverzar 5y ago
      Why are you repeating a propaganda rhetoric that was designed specifically to target people who don't understand how computer networks and infosec works?
      - rosndo 5y ago
        Go on, explain.
    - zelon88 5y ago
      > The NotPetya wiper worm was released by the Russian government, the NSA has never been accused of anything similar. Indeed. When the US released Stuxnet it was specifically made to be discreet and dormant unless activated on a specific target. Russia just throws a pipe bomb into the room and hopes the door is thick enough to withstand the blast.
    - Sophira 5y ago
      > The NotPetya wiper worm was released by the Russian government, the NSA has never been accused of anything similar. Of course it has. The NSA was accused of created Stuxnet, the worm that targeted Iran industrial control systems (such as nuclear power plants). Wikipedia[0] says: > On 1 June 2012, an article in The New York Times said that Stuxnet is part of a US and Israeli intelligence operation named Operation Olympic Games, devised by the NSA under President George W. Bush and executed under President Barack Obama. and: > A Wired magazine article about US General Keith B. Alexander stated: "And he and his cyber warriors have already launched their first attack. The cyber weapon that came to be known as Stuxnet was created and built by the NSA in partnership with the CIA and Israeli intelligence in the mid-2000s." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet
- fsniper 5y ago
  nginx?
- ttybird2 5y ago
  Before zstd existed I was a big fan of LZMA (Created by Igor Pavlov). There are some more software over at https://github.com/igoradamenko/awesome-made-by-russians https://github.com/igoradamenko/awesome-made-by-russians. You can make similar assumptions about a lot of different ethnic groups.
MaxGanzII 5y ago
- shabier 5y ago
  > It doesn't work. > Look at Trump, no? pack of lies from start to finish and half of the USA believes him. And they're entitled to that. If anything, we're to blame for not being able to make a convincing enough argument against Trump.
- BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
  I had an eye opening moment about how the press covers Donald Trump’s statements. Just a few days ago on a podcast Donald Trump said “ Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful” And now there are several articles from major publications implying he genuinely thinks it is wonderful. “As a rule, the number of countries where leading officials see the invasion of Ukraine as "wonderful" is quite small.” -msnbc ” Trump has long expressed admiration for Putin, and this week described his war strategy in Ukraine as "wonderful" and "genius." -Yahoo Interesting thing is, if you listen to the podcast audio Trump is obviously being sarcastic. Have you ever responded to bad news by saying “Oh that’s great” and then had someone literally interpret your statement as you thinking the bad news was actually great? If these journalists had a modicum of integrity they’d interpret him with context and understand that was sarcasm. I don’t think this will actually cause your opinion of Trump to change, but I’m stunned at how easy it is to warp the perception of the man and how he talks.
  - dboreham 5y ago
    It wasn't sarcasm.
  - zelon88 5y ago
    That one line was sarcastic. But you are obviously dillusional if you think this isn't praise... https://www.clayandbuck.com/president-trump-with-cb-from-mar-a-lago/ https://www.clayandbuck.com/president-trump-with-cb-from-mar... "Putin is now saying, “It’s independent,” a large section of Ukraine. I said, “How smart is that?” And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force… We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re gonna keep peace all right. No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy… I know him very well. Very, very well. By the way, this never would have happened with us. Had I been in office, not even thinkable. This would never have happened. But here’s a guy that says, you know, “I’m gonna declare a big portion of Ukraine independent,” he used the word “independent,” “and we’re gonna go out and we’re gonna go in and we’re gonna help keep peace.” You gotta say that’s pretty savvy. And you know what the response was from Biden? There was no response. They didn’t have one for that. No, it’s very sad. Very sad."
criddell 5y ago
Does that ever work for a population? How do you get your version of the truth in front of people who support a different truth? They generally aren't looking for it.
- netsharc 5y ago
  There are protesters in Russia, cutting them off from the Internet would destroy their capabilities to communicate and organize. Which may happen anyway from Putin's side if he declares martial law, which is rumored might happen tomorrow.
  - criddell 5y ago
    It would be a set back for sure. They would have to organize like Americans did for civil rights protests and Vietnam war protests.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Does that ever work for a population? Yes; in fact, on this specific population. The collapse of the Soviet Union was, in part, helped by increased access to information about conditions outside of it, and to external goods and services.
phailhaus 5y ago
That's the same line that was used to defend Trump's use of Twitter, and look at how effective his ban has been. The reason this wouldn't be a good idea isn't because it silences Russia's government, but because it prevents Russians from accessing the rest of the world. If it was possible to silence just Russian propaganda, it would work.
dangerface 5y ago
Maybe their news debunks ours, can you prove there isn't a holocaust going on in Ukraine right now? It's almost impossible to disprove a negative, and any reasonable argument can be dismissed off hand as a lie. In fact if there was a holocaust in Ukraine right now being perpetrated by the west wouldn't they just deny it? The point of Russian propaganda is to create noise it doesn't have to be right it just has to make noise.
- megous 5y ago
  Maybe if their news were independent. Holocaust: It happened mostly away from the cities, so that's likely how it would be happenig now, too. So if Russians wanted to reveal that that is happening, all that would need to happen was for them to send some scouts/spies/infiltrators to the locations where the mass extermination is happening and make a bunch of videos and publish them. There would be no need to shell and try to siege cities, shoot into civilians, etc. Instead of this, all we get is a ton of imagery of destroyed Ukranian cities, and killings of civilians. We can't maybe disprove the negative, but we don't need to. Russia needs to prove the positive.
  - dangerface 5y ago
    Russia doesn't need to prove anything they just need to increase the noise to signal ratio to the point where proof and facts are irrelevant. Russia faked satellite pictures of a Ukraine fighter jet shooting down MH17. They are obvious fakes too the plane is missing Malaysia markings but any western news source that proves they are fake is considered western propaganda / fake news, any Russian critics are labeled as western spies and are arrested. Putin is in power he doesn't need the consent of his citizens or the rest of the world he doesn't need facts or truth and can easily poison that well until no one can drink from it which is exactly what we are seeing with Putins holocaust claims.

VaxWithSex 5y ago

Have you heard of the eternal september?

iso1631 5y ago

It takes far more effort to debunk than to generate, it also takes time, and the debunking doesn't spread virally It's not a solution in the real world

selfhoster11 5y ago
Assuming this propaganda is generated by government trolls, it's pretty easy for their handlers to provide them with a VPN that goes through an unlocked country. Blocking their direct access solves nothing.

zelon88 5y ago

Ok, but what does Russia offer the rest of the internet besides badly written malware, WordPress comment spiders, untrue news articles, shady hosting providers, failed login attempts and honeypots full of fuzzing robots? The Russian government actively promotes hacking against the west and refuses to prosecute anyone for it.

shabier 5y ago
> Ok, but what does Russia offer the rest of the internet besides badly written malware ... honeypots full of fuzzing robots? Does that even matter? The access to the general internet isn't something you have to "earn". You're not more entitled to be in this space more than the next person regardless of your contribution, beliefs or identity. > The Russian government actively promotes hacking against the west and refuses to prosecute anyone for it. Our government friends at the NSA are equally guilty of that as well, I'm not seeing much outrage over that either.
- rosndo 5y ago
  > Our government friends at the NSA are equally guilty of that as well, I'm not seeing much outrage over that either. Indeed, all those NSA ransomware attacks on hospitals have to stop! Perhaps they’re not actually equally guilty and the NSA is far more careful with their approach than the Russians? The NotPetya wiper worm was released by the Russian government, the NSA has never been accused of anything similar. This kind of false equivalency is nothing but dishonest, you should be ashamed of yourself.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - foverzar 5y ago
    Why are you repeating a propaganda rhetoric that was designed specifically to target people who don't understand how computer networks and infosec works?
    - rosndo 5y ago
      Go on, explain.
  - zelon88 5y ago
    > The NotPetya wiper worm was released by the Russian government, the NSA has never been accused of anything similar. Indeed. When the US released Stuxnet it was specifically made to be discreet and dormant unless activated on a specific target. Russia just throws a pipe bomb into the room and hopes the door is thick enough to withstand the blast.
  - Sophira 5y ago
    > The NotPetya wiper worm was released by the Russian government, the NSA has never been accused of anything similar. Of course it has. The NSA was accused of created Stuxnet, the worm that targeted Iran industrial control systems (such as nuclear power plants). Wikipedia[0] says: > On 1 June 2012, an article in The New York Times said that Stuxnet is part of a US and Israeli intelligence operation named Operation Olympic Games, devised by the NSA under President George W. Bush and executed under President Barack Obama. and: > A Wired magazine article about US General Keith B. Alexander stated: "And he and his cyber warriors have already launched their first attack. The cyber weapon that came to be known as Stuxnet was created and built by the NSA in partnership with the CIA and Israeli intelligence in the mid-2000s." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet
fsniper 5y ago
nginx?
ttybird2 5y ago
Before zstd existed I was a big fan of LZMA (Created by Igor Pavlov). There are some more software over at https://github.com/igoradamenko/awesome-made-by-russians https://github.com/igoradamenko/awesome-made-by-russians. You can make similar assumptions about a lot of different ethnic groups.

MaxGanzII 5y ago

shabier 5y ago
> It doesn't work. > Look at Trump, no? pack of lies from start to finish and half of the USA believes him. And they're entitled to that. If anything, we're to blame for not being able to make a convincing enough argument against Trump.
BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
I had an eye opening moment about how the press covers Donald Trump’s statements. Just a few days ago on a podcast Donald Trump said “ Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful” And now there are several articles from major publications implying he genuinely thinks it is wonderful. “As a rule, the number of countries where leading officials see the invasion of Ukraine as "wonderful" is quite small.” -msnbc ” Trump has long expressed admiration for Putin, and this week described his war strategy in Ukraine as "wonderful" and "genius." -Yahoo Interesting thing is, if you listen to the podcast audio Trump is obviously being sarcastic. Have you ever responded to bad news by saying “Oh that’s great” and then had someone literally interpret your statement as you thinking the bad news was actually great? If these journalists had a modicum of integrity they’d interpret him with context and understand that was sarcasm. I don’t think this will actually cause your opinion of Trump to change, but I’m stunned at how easy it is to warp the perception of the man and how he talks.
- dboreham 5y ago
  It wasn't sarcasm.
- zelon88 5y ago
  That one line was sarcastic. But you are obviously dillusional if you think this isn't praise... https://www.clayandbuck.com/president-trump-with-cb-from-mar-a-lago/ https://www.clayandbuck.com/president-trump-with-cb-from-mar... "Putin is now saying, “It’s independent,” a large section of Ukraine. I said, “How smart is that?” And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force… We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re gonna keep peace all right. No, but think of it. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy… I know him very well. Very, very well. By the way, this never would have happened with us. Had I been in office, not even thinkable. This would never have happened. But here’s a guy that says, you know, “I’m gonna declare a big portion of Ukraine independent,” he used the word “independent,” “and we’re gonna go out and we’re gonna go in and we’re gonna help keep peace.” You gotta say that’s pretty savvy. And you know what the response was from Biden? There was no response. They didn’t have one for that. No, it’s very sad. Very sad."

criddell 5y ago

Does that ever work for a population? How do you get your version of the truth in front of people who support a different truth? They generally aren't looking for it.

netsharc 5y ago
There are protesters in Russia, cutting them off from the Internet would destroy their capabilities to communicate and organize. Which may happen anyway from Putin's side if he declares martial law, which is rumored might happen tomorrow.
- criddell 5y ago
  It would be a set back for sure. They would have to organize like Americans did for civil rights protests and Vietnam war protests.
ceejayoz 5y ago
> Does that ever work for a population? Yes; in fact, on this specific population. The collapse of the Soviet Union was, in part, helped by increased access to information about conditions outside of it, and to external goods and services.

phailhaus 5y ago

That's the same line that was used to defend Trump's use of Twitter, and look at how effective his ban has been. The reason this wouldn't be a good idea isn't because it silences Russia's government, but because it prevents Russians from accessing the rest of the world. If it was possible to silence just Russian propaganda, it would work.

dangerface 5y ago

Maybe their news debunks ours, can you prove there isn't a holocaust going on in Ukraine right now? It's almost impossible to disprove a negative, and any reasonable argument can be dismissed off hand as a lie. In fact if there was a holocaust in Ukraine right now being perpetrated by the west wouldn't they just deny it? The point of Russian propaganda is to create noise it doesn't have to be right it just has to make noise.

megous 5y ago
Maybe if their news were independent. Holocaust: It happened mostly away from the cities, so that's likely how it would be happenig now, too. So if Russians wanted to reveal that that is happening, all that would need to happen was for them to send some scouts/spies/infiltrators to the locations where the mass extermination is happening and make a bunch of videos and publish them. There would be no need to shell and try to siege cities, shoot into civilians, etc. Instead of this, all we get is a ton of imagery of destroyed Ukranian cities, and killings of civilians. We can't maybe disprove the negative, but we don't need to. Russia needs to prove the positive.
- dangerface 5y ago
  Russia doesn't need to prove anything they just need to increase the noise to signal ratio to the point where proof and facts are irrelevant. Russia faked satellite pictures of a Ukraine fighter jet shooting down MH17. They are obvious fakes too the plane is missing Malaysia markings but any western news source that proves they are fake is considered western propaganda / fake news, any Russian critics are labeled as western spies and are arrested. Putin is in power he doesn't need the consent of his citizens or the rest of the world he doesn't need facts or truth and can easily poison that well until no one can drink from it which is exactly what we are seeing with Putins holocaust claims.