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As a opposite view: Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time

As a opposite view: Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Commuting is different in different places. For me it is 15 minute drive to the office from a neighboring smaller city where property prices are 5x lower. I've never eaten more takeout in my life than during past 2 years. At the office I had access to healthy "home style" cooking with variety of diet. Now I have access to pizza, poor quality Chinese, and decent Indian food. Of course I could cook for myself, but I don't like cooking and I don't want to spend the time. I'd argue my Quality of Life has gotten significantly worse especially since they closed gyms. Yes, they are now open, but there is also like a meter of snow outside so I probably won't get to the gym until spring actually starts. I live in an apartment complex so the super has the keys to do whatever work needs to be done without my presence. I could take my deliveries at the office (and I often did since I saw clear improvement on delivery dates when they delivered to a business instead of residential address). Doctor visits were never an issue, because remote work was always an option and many people did work a day or two every week remotely. If past experience is anything to go by I will get flooded with people saying that I should just do better and be better remote worker (like I probably shouldn't be writting this on company time) instead of acknowledging that different people are different and working at the office fits me and my life style better and that I've optimized for that lifestyle long before the pandemic hit. I personally can't wait for life to go back to normal. I'm sure we will lose some people since they want to be 100% remote and that's fine.

gbear605 5y ago
> Yes, they are now open, but there is also like a meter of snow outside Wouldn’t that snow be just as annoying to deal with for getting to work?
- DrammBA 5y ago
  He's definitely double dipping on the "I want to return to the office" and "It sucks going outside"
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  Kind a different to go out everyday and then hitting gym on the way to or from the office than sitting at home whole winter while snow piles on top of my car and freezes solid and then finally getting a permission to go to the gym. And waking up early just to walk to the gym and back feels weird.
ihateolives 5y ago
> Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. People spending time on other things could be a sign that they either don't want to can't do full 8h anyway. I can't, just can't, my mind does not work that way. I can spend 2-3 days at the lowest gear just barely ticking boxes and then get everything done in one productive day. I'd be happy and I dare say more productive for the dollar when working 6h for 20% reduced pay. I now still work 6h but stretched to 8h and I don't have guilt free extra 2h for my own stuff because I feel like I should be accomplishing something no matter my health, the weather, my emotional state or other factors going on in my life.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  In my company literally nothing prevents from them negotiating less hours, but people don't want to take the pay cut they just want to play Elden Ring or Warhammer 3 or whatever is hottest game that week. It is especially bad with the guys who have young kids because they have no free time so they "sneak in" some game time during the work day.
- automatic6131 5y ago
  >People spending time on other things could be a sign that they either don't want to can't do full 8h anyway. I can't, just can't It's a shame that people working in, say, low paying jobs in restaurants, care work, supermarkets, cleaning or factories can't say the same.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. I'm going to be honest with you, I occasionally play video games during work hours at the office too. Way I figure it, if no one is saying anything about my output then they are receiving the value they expect for what they're paying me, and I'm not charitable enough to give them more than that. I was only able to work from home during this whole thing for 2 weeks when the entire department had COVID (myself included). I played through Factorio[0] during those two weeks and nobody noticed. [0] I didn't like it. It's very well made and I cannot say it doesn't successfully implement exactly the experience it intends to, I just didn't actually have fun.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  Except productivity has not stayd at the same level. We can clearly see that we've been pushing fewer features per quarter into production. Also one guy doing this overtly errodes the whole team. Like why should I work all day while you play video games or go skiing or whatever in the middle of the day? Yeah nobody is complaining because they are being nice and/or assuming that your productivity has dipped do to the pandemic.
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    When you brought this up to your manager what did they say?
    - nextlevelwizard 5y ago
      Dude, I ain't no snitch.
      - kelseyfrog 5y ago
        More power to you then. :) It sounds like not being a snitch is more important than feeling like things aren't fair?
fernandotakai 5y ago
>I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. as long as their tasks are done, who cares? i take a 30min nap after lunch almost every day but i could also do a FFXIV dungeon instead.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  You conveniently missed the first part where I said their output has noticeably dropped during the remote working period.
  - TheKarateKid 5y ago
    Then this is a problem with your team. On the other hand, my team has been more productive. I enter work with more energy that would be wasted during a commute. I often work later knowing I don't need to account for an evening commute. We can multi-task during portions of meetings which don't require our attention. You sound like a micromanager. If you have notable metrics that show decreased output, then raise the issue and correct it. But don't say that everyone should be subject to losing privileges due to your team's poor performance.
zeku 5y ago
I think the overall theme here shouldn't be "I'm sure we will lose ppl and that's fine". Instead you should be an advocate for mixed teams. Why can't your remote coworker just zoom into the meeting with you onsite? We can all be accommodating to each other.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  Tooling issue is one thing. Choice of VoIP is MS Teams since it comes free with the IT package and Teams is complete shit to use. Second it the actual logistics. It was always pain to accommedate the one or two remotees by having some kind of conference phone-thing. Over all it is just way more convenient and nicer to talk face to face. In my opinion even all online meeting is better than hybrid one.
johnnyanmac 5y ago
> I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Yeah, kinda guilty of that. Zero gym and during the winter hours where end of work = end of sun, I've had times where I take a walk. Usually more than 1 unproductive day leads to me just using a bit of the moonlight oil to catch up. Nothing super drastic, but e.g. last month there was a day where I just had a burst of productivity to ride for some 3-4 hours at 18:00. Game wise, I'm never going full "well time to boot up the PS5", but I have been playing a lot more mobile games on the side while stuff compiles. >I personally can't wait for life to go back to normal. I'm sure we will lose some people since they want to be 100% remote and that's fine Well, tech is an even hotter market than a pre-pandemic so in my industry I'm not too worried about anyone pursuing full remote. It can go vice versa for those companies that go full remote and for people who want that separation of life. I still want some office to go into, but I do hope that this pandemic changes some attitudes about the times where I made need to take a "sick but still productive" day at home, or when I travel and need a week to just report in remotely. Flexibility is nice in a pinch and in previous companies that was a pain.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  >"sick but still productive" day at home I don't get this. If you are sick then be sick. Instead of working 3-5 days in half capacity just take a rest day or two and you'll be back to 100%. As I've understood some countries have limited sick days, but that's not a thing here. I always tell my team members to take sick day if they don't feel 100% because over all it will be more productive if people work they they are healthy. And as per pre-pandemic remote working days were always an option, just not full time since there were days like sprint start and ending days that were much smoother when everyone was present in person.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
NickGott 5y ago
>Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Dear god, people enjoying their life. This is the worst. Clearly society can't function unless everyone is miserable. Have you ever considered that maybe the entire 8 hour work day is bullshit? That it is entirely possible for people to contribute productively within different time-frames? >I'd argue my Quality of Life has gotten significantly worse especially since they closed gyms. Yes, they are now open, but there is also like a meter of snow outside so I probably won't get to the gym until spring actually starts. What does this have to do with working from home? What could remote work possibly have to do with your inability to stick to a gym routine? >I'm sure we will lose some people since they want to be 100% remote and that's fine. You won't "lose some people". Unless your company has the pay and clout that Google has, your company will be decimated by a wave of people quitting.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  >Have you ever considered that maybe the entire 8 hour work day is bullshit? That it is entirely possible for people to contribute productively within different time-frames? Have you considered some reading comprehension? Read the first sentence you quoted again and stop pushing your own opinion and gospel. >What does this have to do with working from home? What could remote work possibly have to do with your inability to stick to a gym routine? This too is super disingenious line of questioning. How aobut not being able to go to anywhere else? Feels pretty weird just to drive to the gym and back. >You won't "lose some people". Unless your company has the pay and clout that Google has, your company will be decimated by a wave of people quitting. ROFL
  - mecha_ghidorah 5y ago
    > This too is super disingenious line of questioning. How aobut not being able to go to anywhere else? Feels pretty weird just to drive to the gym and back. That has nothing to do with working from home though, it has to do with the pandemic. I go places during my lunchbreak in work from home now that there are vaccines and things are open again - it's so convenient, if I need to duck to the store or the chemist or I want to pick up food from a local cafe.
TheKarateKid 5y ago
> Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. We as humans are not designed to be productive selves 5 days in a row, for 8 hours a day. If I'm not feeling well or having a bad day, I might finish working an hour or two early but make up for it by working overtime another day that week. It doesn't matter that I cut that day short - I wasn't going to be very productive if I wasn't feeling well anyway. The 9-5, 8 hour work day was designed for PHYSICAL labor during the industrial revolution where output was directly correlated to time. This is not the case anymore. If someone can meet/exceed their responsibilities in 5 hours, why do they need to spend 8 hours just because slower workers need that time? This just punishes efficient workers.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago
  >If I'm not feeling well or having a bad day, I might finish working an hour or two early but make up for it by working overtime another day that week. That is no issue. In fact in my company we don't care how long you work per day or when you work. People tell us how many hours they can work per month and they get paid accordingly. Of course the union sets some minimum and maximum numbers we can do, but in essense it is normal to work flexible hours. Even to just take days off and do either longer days or work on a weekend/holiday if that's what you want. Or work hours "into bank" before hand and then take days/hours off. No problem with that. My problem is guys literally working 9-5, expect "lunch break" takes 2-3 hours since they are playing a video game. >If someone can meet/exceed their responsibilities in 5 hours, why do they need to spend 8 hours just because slower workers need that time? This just punishes efficient workers. Except people will always find excuses why it wasn't their fault the feature/release/product didn't ship in time.
  - TheKarateKid 5y ago
    > My problem is guys literally working 9-5, expect "lunch break" takes 2-3 hours since they are playing a video game. You missed the entire point of my comment. If they take 2-3 hour lunch breaks and meet/exceed their company and performance goals, then it shouldn't matter how long they are working. Results matter, not time.
dnate 5y ago
Most if not all your points are moot if optional WfH is implemented. Which is what all the proponents of WfH want. I don't think anyone want's to force people to work from home. Just give us the options.
rufus_foreman 5y ago
>> I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example I've seen people playing ping pong during work hours in the office. They even have tournaments sometimes. The horror.
com2kid 5y ago
> I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. My team used to play street fighter or super smash bros during lunch. However, a decrease in output is a separate issue that needs to be addressed by the employee's manager/leader. > I've never eaten more takeout in my life than during past 2 years. At the office I had access to healthy "home style" cooking with variety of diet. Now I have access to pizza, poor quality Chinese, and decent Indian food. Of course I could cook for myself, but I don't like cooking and I don't want to spend the time. My company's office is close to only a couple worthwhile restaurants (WTF Downtown Seattle, if you aren't next to cap hill you are boned). While at home, I have multiple good options within walking distance to me. Check if you are within shef.com's service area. Home made meals from local cooks. Great stuff. > I'd argue my Quality of Life has gotten significantly worse especially since they closed gyms. Once they reopen, WfH means the time saved on commuting can be turned into gym time! Prior to WfH I had to bring workout clothes and a towel with me if I wanted to hit the gym before lunch. Because my commute was on a bus, that was crammed full standing room only shoulder to shoulder, adding a gym bag in the mix was no fun.

gbear605 5y ago

> Yes, they are now open, but there is also like a meter of snow outside Wouldn’t that snow be just as annoying to deal with for getting to work?

DrammBA 5y ago
He's definitely double dipping on the "I want to return to the office" and "It sucks going outside"
nextlevelwizard 5y ago
Kind a different to go out everyday and then hitting gym on the way to or from the office than sitting at home whole winter while snow piles on top of my car and freezes solid and then finally getting a permission to go to the gym. And waking up early just to walk to the gym and back feels weird.

ihateolives 5y ago

> Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. People spending time on other things could be a sign that they either don't want to can't do full 8h anyway. I can't, just can't, my mind does not work that way. I can spend 2-3 days at the lowest gear just barely ticking boxes and then get everything done in one productive day. I'd be happy and I dare say more productive for the dollar when working 6h for 20% reduced pay. I now still work 6h but stretched to 8h and I don't have guilt free extra 2h for my own stuff because I feel like I should be accomplishing something no matter my health, the weather, my emotional state or other factors going on in my life.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
In my company literally nothing prevents from them negotiating less hours, but people don't want to take the pay cut they just want to play Elden Ring or Warhammer 3 or whatever is hottest game that week. It is especially bad with the guys who have young kids because they have no free time so they "sneak in" some game time during the work day.
automatic6131 5y ago
>People spending time on other things could be a sign that they either don't want to can't do full 8h anyway. I can't, just can't It's a shame that people working in, say, low paying jobs in restaurants, care work, supermarkets, cleaning or factories can't say the same.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

> Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. I'm going to be honest with you, I occasionally play video games during work hours at the office too. Way I figure it, if no one is saying anything about my output then they are receiving the value they expect for what they're paying me, and I'm not charitable enough to give them more than that. I was only able to work from home during this whole thing for 2 weeks when the entire department had COVID (myself included). I played through Factorio[0] during those two weeks and nobody noticed. [0] I didn't like it. It's very well made and I cannot say it doesn't successfully implement exactly the experience it intends to, I just didn't actually have fun.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
Except productivity has not stayd at the same level. We can clearly see that we've been pushing fewer features per quarter into production. Also one guy doing this overtly errodes the whole team. Like why should I work all day while you play video games or go skiing or whatever in the middle of the day? Yeah nobody is complaining because they are being nice and/or assuming that your productivity has dipped do to the pandemic.
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  When you brought this up to your manager what did they say?
  - nextlevelwizard 5y ago
    Dude, I ain't no snitch.
    - kelseyfrog 5y ago
      More power to you then. :) It sounds like not being a snitch is more important than feeling like things aren't fair?

fernandotakai 5y ago

>I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. as long as their tasks are done, who cares? i take a 30min nap after lunch almost every day but i could also do a FFXIV dungeon instead.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
You conveniently missed the first part where I said their output has noticeably dropped during the remote working period.
- TheKarateKid 5y ago
  Then this is a problem with your team. On the other hand, my team has been more productive. I enter work with more energy that would be wasted during a commute. I often work later knowing I don't need to account for an evening commute. We can multi-task during portions of meetings which don't require our attention. You sound like a micromanager. If you have notable metrics that show decreased output, then raise the issue and correct it. But don't say that everyone should be subject to losing privileges due to your team's poor performance.

zeku 5y ago

I think the overall theme here shouldn't be "I'm sure we will lose ppl and that's fine". Instead you should be an advocate for mixed teams. Why can't your remote coworker just zoom into the meeting with you onsite? We can all be accommodating to each other.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
Tooling issue is one thing. Choice of VoIP is MS Teams since it comes free with the IT package and Teams is complete shit to use. Second it the actual logistics. It was always pain to accommedate the one or two remotees by having some kind of conference phone-thing. Over all it is just way more convenient and nicer to talk face to face. In my opinion even all online meeting is better than hybrid one.

johnnyanmac 5y ago

> I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Yeah, kinda guilty of that. Zero gym and during the winter hours where end of work = end of sun, I've had times where I take a walk. Usually more than 1 unproductive day leads to me just using a bit of the moonlight oil to catch up. Nothing super drastic, but e.g. last month there was a day where I just had a burst of productivity to ride for some 3-4 hours at 18:00. Game wise, I'm never going full "well time to boot up the PS5", but I have been playing a lot more mobile games on the side while stuff compiles. >I personally can't wait for life to go back to normal. I'm sure we will lose some people since they want to be 100% remote and that's fine Well, tech is an even hotter market than a pre-pandemic so in my industry I'm not too worried about anyone pursuing full remote. It can go vice versa for those companies that go full remote and for people who want that separation of life. I still want some office to go into, but I do hope that this pandemic changes some attitudes about the times where I made need to take a "sick but still productive" day at home, or when I travel and need a week to just report in remotely. Flexibility is nice in a pinch and in previous companies that was a pain.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
>"sick but still productive" day at home I don't get this. If you are sick then be sick. Instead of working 3-5 days in half capacity just take a rest day or two and you'll be back to 100%. As I've understood some countries have limited sick days, but that's not a thing here. I always tell my team members to take sick day if they don't feel 100% because over all it will be more productive if people work they they are healthy. And as per pre-pandemic remote working days were always an option, just not full time since there were days like sprint start and ending days that were much smoother when everyone was present in person.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

NickGott 5y ago

>Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. Dear god, people enjoying their life. This is the worst. Clearly society can't function unless everyone is miserable. Have you ever considered that maybe the entire 8 hour work day is bullshit? That it is entirely possible for people to contribute productively within different time-frames? >I'd argue my Quality of Life has gotten significantly worse especially since they closed gyms. Yes, they are now open, but there is also like a meter of snow outside so I probably won't get to the gym until spring actually starts. What does this have to do with working from home? What could remote work possibly have to do with your inability to stick to a gym routine? >I'm sure we will lose some people since they want to be 100% remote and that's fine. You won't "lose some people". Unless your company has the pay and clout that Google has, your company will be decimated by a wave of people quitting.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
>Have you ever considered that maybe the entire 8 hour work day is bullshit? That it is entirely possible for people to contribute productively within different time-frames? Have you considered some reading comprehension? Read the first sentence you quoted again and stop pushing your own opinion and gospel. >What does this have to do with working from home? What could remote work possibly have to do with your inability to stick to a gym routine? This too is super disingenious line of questioning. How aobut not being able to go to anywhere else? Feels pretty weird just to drive to the gym and back. >You won't "lose some people". Unless your company has the pay and clout that Google has, your company will be decimated by a wave of people quitting. ROFL
- mecha_ghidorah 5y ago
  > This too is super disingenious line of questioning. How aobut not being able to go to anywhere else? Feels pretty weird just to drive to the gym and back. That has nothing to do with working from home though, it has to do with the pandemic. I go places during my lunchbreak in work from home now that there are vaccines and things are open again - it's so convenient, if I need to duck to the store or the chemist or I want to pick up food from a local cafe.

TheKarateKid 5y ago

> Some team members output has severely dropped. I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. Also work and free time has mixed to a point where people just randomly take hour or two to go skiing or for a walk and routinely just quit at the normal time. We as humans are not designed to be productive selves 5 days in a row, for 8 hours a day. If I'm not feeling well or having a bad day, I might finish working an hour or two early but make up for it by working overtime another day that week. It doesn't matter that I cut that day short - I wasn't going to be very productive if I wasn't feeling well anyway. The 9-5, 8 hour work day was designed for PHYSICAL labor during the industrial revolution where output was directly correlated to time. This is not the case anymore. If someone can meet/exceed their responsibilities in 5 hours, why do they need to spend 8 hours just because slower workers need that time? This just punishes efficient workers.

nextlevelwizard 5y ago
>If I'm not feeling well or having a bad day, I might finish working an hour or two early but make up for it by working overtime another day that week. That is no issue. In fact in my company we don't care how long you work per day or when you work. People tell us how many hours they can work per month and they get paid accordingly. Of course the union sets some minimum and maximum numbers we can do, but in essense it is normal to work flexible hours. Even to just take days off and do either longer days or work on a weekend/holiday if that's what you want. Or work hours "into bank" before hand and then take days/hours off. No problem with that. My problem is guys literally working 9-5, expect "lunch break" takes 2-3 hours since they are playing a video game. >If someone can meet/exceed their responsibilities in 5 hours, why do they need to spend 8 hours just because slower workers need that time? This just punishes efficient workers. Except people will always find excuses why it wasn't their fault the feature/release/product didn't ship in time.
- TheKarateKid 5y ago
  > My problem is guys literally working 9-5, expect "lunch break" takes 2-3 hours since they are playing a video game. You missed the entire point of my comment. If they take 2-3 hour lunch breaks and meet/exceed their company and performance goals, then it shouldn't matter how long they are working. Results matter, not time.

dnate 5y ago

Most if not all your points are moot if optional WfH is implemented. Which is what all the proponents of WfH want. I don't think anyone want's to force people to work from home. Just give us the options.

rufus_foreman 5y ago

>> I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example I've seen people playing ping pong during work hours in the office. They even have tournaments sometimes. The horror.

com2kid 5y ago

> I've seen people playing video games during work hours for example. My team used to play street fighter or super smash bros during lunch. However, a decrease in output is a separate issue that needs to be addressed by the employee's manager/leader. > I've never eaten more takeout in my life than during past 2 years. At the office I had access to healthy "home style" cooking with variety of diet. Now I have access to pizza, poor quality Chinese, and decent Indian food. Of course I could cook for myself, but I don't like cooking and I don't want to spend the time. My company's office is close to only a couple worthwhile restaurants (WTF Downtown Seattle, if you aren't next to cap hill you are boned). While at home, I have multiple good options within walking distance to me. Check if you are within shef.com's service area. Home made meals from local cooks. Great stuff. > I'd argue my Quality of Life has gotten significantly worse especially since they closed gyms. Once they reopen, WfH means the time saved on commuting can be turned into gym time! Prior to WfH I had to bring workout clothes and a towel with me if I wanted to hit the gym before lunch. Because my commute was on a bus, that was crammed full standing room only shoulder to shoulder, adding a gym bag in the mix was no fun.