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Dude, your comment is absolutely bizarre, and that’s the most charitable way to interpret it. NATO is a defensive alliance, and isn’t a threat to anyone, unles

Dude, your comment is absolutely bizarre, and that’s the most charitable way to interpret it. NATO is a defensive alliance, and isn’t a threat to anyone, unless you consider being able to deter nuclear warheads as a threat then sure, go ahead. So, yeah, if you have a bunch of nukes, which you plan to use/threaten their use, then I guess your neighbors joining a defensive alliance would be perceived as a threat. I think more or less the world is trying to move to a post-violence order, and I think it’s been made clear by their actions that Russia is threatened by that, for some reason. I can’t imagine why they don’t have more allies…

mjburgess 5y ago
No one in this thread appears to be able to see the world from the Russian POV. That is precisely why this is all going to end in catastrophe. Imagine Asian countries (China, Russia, etc.) had a military alliance that was working its way up through south america, gaining memebers, placing nukes. And one day it says, Mexico is going to join. I can tell you, if that had happened in Peru, the USA would have invaded -- let alone mexico. This naiveity of "presumably we're the good guys and russia can see that", is a delusion that will lead to mass ukrainian deaths.
- asimpletune 5y ago
  I mean, that’s not happening right though, is i? I presume if there were such an alliance, it would be because there are benefits to joining one. Maybe that’s why there aren’t any as you described. NATO isn’t the result of some hypothetical thought experiment. It exists because it offers tangible benefits to its members. So for your counter example to be valid the same would to have be true for such an alliance, in which case the world would probably be a very different place and probably not as bad at all as how you were arguing.
- romwell 5y ago
  There's nothing here about "we're the good guys", and the only naïvety in this thread is believing that Russia's invasion was caused by Ukraine wanting to join NATO... after Russia invaded, took Crimea, and established LNR/DNR puppet states in 2014. Again, as a Ukrainian, let me tell you: it's never been about NATO. Russia has been suppressing Ukrainian statehood for centuries: betwen the disbanding of Zaporozhska Sich in the 1700's and the conquest of independent Ukraine by the Red Army in 1918, there's plenty of history before NATO even existed. Read the editorial that Russian-controlled media has published about their victory in Ukraine ahead of schedule [1]. It's about control. It's about Ukrainian statehood being erased. It's about Ukrainians not existing as people, only as "little-o-Russians" - malorossy (they made up a goddamn word for us!). It's about Ukraine being permanently aligned with the Russian state, which, in turn, exists to serve the interests of one deranged person. We don't want that. Please help us hold the line, because you'll be next if you don't. Read that article to see the future Russia has in store for us — and for you. To Russia, Ukraine "is not a country", merely a part of Russia that's behaving in error [2]. Of course, that vision is extensible to cover the entire world. Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic states, Eastern Europe (aka "brothers slavs") — and that's just the beginning. Read it. Thank you, and stand with Ukraine. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60562240 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60562240 [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/in-first-interview-since-departure-russia-s-former-gray-cardinal-questions-existence-of-ukraine/30456301.html https://www.rferl.org/a/in-first-interview-since-departure-r...
  - mjburgess 5y ago
    These are just stories. Russia is ruthelessly concerend with its own strategic interests; not these stories. If you leap into them, like the Russian public or delusional westerners looking to excuse their own stupidity, you will be blinded to the actual situation. Russia wanted Ukraine to be a neutral state, and that has been its policy until 2008 when the USA insisted it join NATO. International politics is not about stories; that's domestic politics -- leaders tell them to their own people to spin their geopolitical interests. Russia wants to retain it's great power status in the world, as it transitions to USA/China/Russia. Everything it has been doing since 2008 is to rebalance its power against USA/NATO encroachment, and ensure its security for the next 50 years. Russia will now level your country to the ground. There is no "standing with ukraine", that is just asking for more cities to be destroyed. The only question is how much the west makes russia destroy ukraine, in order to trap russia further in the quagmire. Ukraine will be obliterated before the USA/UK is done -- we will not save you, we will only arm you to your death.
    - romwell 5y ago
      >Russia wants to retain it's great power status in the world Russia can go fuck itself. Nobody cares - or should care - what they want anymore. And the "power status" is already nothing more than a story - the one only fools can believe in. >Russia will now level your country to the ground. There is no "standing with ukraine", that is just asking for more cities to be destroyed. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Two weeks of war, and they managed to take Kherson and are busy trying to destroy Mariupol. Looks like "arming us to our death" had an opposite effect, friend. Wake-up call: you don't just level the largest country in Europe with a population of about 40 million people. And if you do, you still don't win. Cities can be rebuilt. Any sort of support of going along with Russia cannot be, at this point. >we will not save you, we will only arm you to your death. Yes, please. Can you start now?
- mvc 5y ago
  > No one in this thread appears to be able to see the world from the Russian POV That's because the Russian POV is murderous genocide https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1499400893111832588 https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1499400893111832588

mjburgess 5y ago

No one in this thread appears to be able to see the world from the Russian POV. That is precisely why this is all going to end in catastrophe. Imagine Asian countries (China, Russia, etc.) had a military alliance that was working its way up through south america, gaining memebers, placing nukes. And one day it says, Mexico is going to join. I can tell you, if that had happened in Peru, the USA would have invaded -- let alone mexico. This naiveity of "presumably we're the good guys and russia can see that", is a delusion that will lead to mass ukrainian deaths.

asimpletune 5y ago
I mean, that’s not happening right though, is i? I presume if there were such an alliance, it would be because there are benefits to joining one. Maybe that’s why there aren’t any as you described. NATO isn’t the result of some hypothetical thought experiment. It exists because it offers tangible benefits to its members. So for your counter example to be valid the same would to have be true for such an alliance, in which case the world would probably be a very different place and probably not as bad at all as how you were arguing.
romwell 5y ago
There's nothing here about "we're the good guys", and the only naïvety in this thread is believing that Russia's invasion was caused by Ukraine wanting to join NATO... after Russia invaded, took Crimea, and established LNR/DNR puppet states in 2014. Again, as a Ukrainian, let me tell you: it's never been about NATO. Russia has been suppressing Ukrainian statehood for centuries: betwen the disbanding of Zaporozhska Sich in the 1700's and the conquest of independent Ukraine by the Red Army in 1918, there's plenty of history before NATO even existed. Read the editorial that Russian-controlled media has published about their victory in Ukraine ahead of schedule [1]. It's about control. It's about Ukrainian statehood being erased. It's about Ukrainians not existing as people, only as "little-o-Russians" - malorossy (they made up a goddamn word for us!). It's about Ukraine being permanently aligned with the Russian state, which, in turn, exists to serve the interests of one deranged person. We don't want that. Please help us hold the line, because you'll be next if you don't. Read that article to see the future Russia has in store for us — and for you. To Russia, Ukraine "is not a country", merely a part of Russia that's behaving in error [2]. Of course, that vision is extensible to cover the entire world. Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic states, Eastern Europe (aka "brothers slavs") — and that's just the beginning. Read it. Thank you, and stand with Ukraine. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60562240 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60562240 [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/in-first-interview-since-departure-russia-s-former-gray-cardinal-questions-existence-of-ukraine/30456301.html https://www.rferl.org/a/in-first-interview-since-departure-r...
- mjburgess 5y ago
  These are just stories. Russia is ruthelessly concerend with its own strategic interests; not these stories. If you leap into them, like the Russian public or delusional westerners looking to excuse their own stupidity, you will be blinded to the actual situation. Russia wanted Ukraine to be a neutral state, and that has been its policy until 2008 when the USA insisted it join NATO. International politics is not about stories; that's domestic politics -- leaders tell them to their own people to spin their geopolitical interests. Russia wants to retain it's great power status in the world, as it transitions to USA/China/Russia. Everything it has been doing since 2008 is to rebalance its power against USA/NATO encroachment, and ensure its security for the next 50 years. Russia will now level your country to the ground. There is no "standing with ukraine", that is just asking for more cities to be destroyed. The only question is how much the west makes russia destroy ukraine, in order to trap russia further in the quagmire. Ukraine will be obliterated before the USA/UK is done -- we will not save you, we will only arm you to your death.
  - romwell 5y ago
    >Russia wants to retain it's great power status in the world Russia can go fuck itself. Nobody cares - or should care - what they want anymore. And the "power status" is already nothing more than a story - the one only fools can believe in. >Russia will now level your country to the ground. There is no "standing with ukraine", that is just asking for more cities to be destroyed. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Two weeks of war, and they managed to take Kherson and are busy trying to destroy Mariupol. Looks like "arming us to our death" had an opposite effect, friend. Wake-up call: you don't just level the largest country in Europe with a population of about 40 million people. And if you do, you still don't win. Cities can be rebuilt. Any sort of support of going along with Russia cannot be, at this point. >we will not save you, we will only arm you to your death. Yes, please. Can you start now?
mvc 5y ago
> No one in this thread appears to be able to see the world from the Russian POV That's because the Russian POV is murderous genocide https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1499400893111832588 https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1499400893111832588